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Old 11-29-2015, 05:01 PM   #26
philepistemer
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

Why do you think that a player who is so tight that he won't raise a strong draw on a board that misses a preflop raiser out of the big blind will just snap get it in with JJ or TT after we've shown a lot of strength by calling a flop raise? I agree that 87 is unlikely, but it's unlikely for the same reason that JJ or TT is unlikely.
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Old 11-29-2015, 05:11 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

You make a good point, though, that if V is ever overplaying 1 pair, then we have to get it in. It's incredibly exploitable to fold AA in this spot, so we need a read that V is a confirmed super nit before we fold.

It repulses me so much to pay off nits that maybe I err too much on the side of folding in these spots, but this probably should be a call until we inevitably see V turn over 66, at which point we can resolve to never call a significant bet from him until he shows that he has some wiggle in his game.
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:05 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Originally Posted by philepistemer View Post
after we've shown a lot of strength by calling a flop raise?
How would we play AK on this board? Would we cbet/fold? Or cbet/call/re evaluate after the turn?

Reverse the situations, and we have TT or JJ on this board. What does our line look like? If we raise OTF and are flat called, what do we bet OTT? Or do we check back with an overpair OTT, because we were called OTF? Are we missing value if we always check back an overpair (TT or JJ as V, of course) OTT?
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:21 PM   #29
philepistemer
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

I would not bet 2x pot with JJ in villains shoes against a non-whale. I would occasionally play sets, straights and big draws this way (but probably only one group of hands or the other for exploitive reasons), but you're turning JJ or TT into a bluff or over-protecting it when you use this sizing against a decent player.
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:32 PM   #30
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Originally Posted by philepistemer View Post
I would not bet 2x pot with JJ in villains shoes against a non-whale.
You actually bring up another good point here. Most Vs at LLSNL overplay pairs like TT and JJ, from a desire to end the hand early, making it even more likely that we need to call here.
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:12 PM   #31
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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You actually bring up another good point here. Most Vs at LLSNL overplay pairs like TT and JJ, from a desire to end the hand early, making it even more likely that we need to call here.
Given that we have no real reads on villian, yeah he folded for the hour that we are there doesnt mean he wasent card dead etc.
I can see villianshow up with TT/JJ a fair bit of the time.
Just for the fact that villain thinks hero has AK/ or some kind of flush draw.
As for the hand this just looks like JJ wanting to end the hand and take down the pot.
I dont really know if I could call this but I know I wouldnt inst muck AA here as well.
Will do the maths on this later when i get home but I think depending on your range on this guy you are not that bad of shape.
Would love to know how it played out
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:46 PM   #32
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

So we are running under the assumption that villain would passively just limp/complete JJ/TT like a little ***** but then take ultra aggressive actions like check/raising flop -> shoving turn? Uh yah and I have a 10' dick.
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:28 PM   #33
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

What happened was i thought for 5 minutes then folded. All my instincts said i was dominated so i listened to them
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:55 AM   #34
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Flop is not a shove or fold spot, lol, it's a fold or call spot. It might be a fold, but a shove is much worse than calling against the described player.
Yea when I heard 'this is a shove or fold spot' I literally lol'd.

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^Sorry, yeah agreed. I'm not saying I'd shove on this player - I'd definitely fold - we just got slightly sidetracked into discussing how to deal with a proper TAG raising a somewhat balanced range of sets and draws. The relevant point was we don't believe V is a real TAG.

Anyway I was hoping someone would do a load of maths on that for me...
dude what? Proper TAG? loads of maths? must've went to Harrow...

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So we are running under the assumption that villain would passively just limp/complete JJ/TT like a little ***** but then take ultra aggressive actions like check/raising flop -> shoving turn? Uh yah and I have a 10' dick.
also lol
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:45 AM   #35
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Sorry, work and Black Friday, etc.

V never has a str8 here as described. He has all combos of 9s, 6s, 4s, Ts, Js, I actually think Qs ARE possible, at least enough to give him half the QQ combos, and, of course, air.

Even if you added half the combos of 87 (unlikely IMO), and ignored completely the air in his range, Hero is a 52.6%-47.4% favorite.

If you drop the Qs and the combos of 87, Hero is a 56.5%-43.5% favorite.

Snap call, IMO.
Thanks for this - always helps to see reasoning. Personally I would never put TT/JJ in a tight villain's SB-complete/call range. These are hands most bad players like to raise big pre because they hate seeing an overcard on the flop. They don't know how to play postflop so I agree they try to end the hand early but that means they start preflop and continue aggressing low card flops - they don't play preflop passively and then go mental on the flop.

I do agree with you that 87 is unlikely because: Villain was passive preflop, presumably because he has a weak/speculative hand. I expect this type of player to mostly be passive postflop with their draws. Hence after he raises flop I think he has 2-pair+ mostly whereas if he called the flop I'd expect him to have a draw or weak pair.

I think it is grasping at straws putting Tt/JJ (and, as someone else suggested, A9) in his flop raising range. It really doesn't fit with my experience of how tight, somewhat passive villains play.

As I was saying earlier if V was a competent TAG my approach would be different. Same again if he is a fish who I think can slow play big pairs preflop and then get out of line with them postflop. I need to see some evidence that a villain is a TAG or a fish before I risk my stack calling this kind of flop raise.

The evidence we have on this villain is limited but suggests he is tight and passive. I'll therefore treat his big bets and raises as pretty nutted until I learn otherwise.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:07 PM   #36
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Yea when I heard 'this is a shove or fold spot' I literally lol'd.

dude what? Proper TAG? loads of maths? must've went to Harrow...

also lol
Why are you finding this all so funny? If you don't explain why you disagree with someone you leave them unable to enter a discussion with you. The maths I referred to was equity calculations vs different flop raising ranges that a reasonable TAG might use while attempting to balance between value hands and semibluffs. It is a slight derail so no worries about that.


IMO it is a shove or fold spot on the flop depending on the way villain plays:

1) shove vs a fish who overvalues top pair and overpairs postflop but likes to play hands that make top pair and overpairs passively preflop. We shove because we want to trap these 1-pair hands for their stacks before the board gets scarier and prevents them putting more chips in.

2) shove flop vs LAG/TAG-fish who you think raises too many draws and continues with so many that he is unbalanced vs his sets. We shove to trap his draws and ensure we get his stack everytime the draw doesn't come in.

3) fold flop vs a good TAG who raises flop with a balanced range that is designed to be unprofitable, or breakeven at best, for you to call with overpairs.

4) fold flop vs a Nit or suspected nit or a total unknown. We're playing it safe and losing some value sometimes but I'm happy with that as a trade for lower variance while I get a better read on a new opponent.

The only time I'd call flop here would be vs a maniac bluffer/ultra thin value bettor who I know can barrel his stack with a range that's much wider than TP+ and legit draws AND he folds a lot when you try to retake the initiative. I rarely make this read on any players so calling this flop would be quite a rare thing for me to do.

Please feel free to critique. I welcome any and all constructive criticism that I can learn something from and engage with.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:49 PM   #37
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

You dont shove flop because V can just fold his draws and continue with better. If you flat in position you get value from when V value bets/bluffs at K/Q/whatever turns.

If V is raise/folding TPGK (he would fold) then shoving is also super bad.

You also keep your own range wider by flatting the flop to include hands that can fold to turn barrels.

Depending on the V I would be inclined to call the turn because if he's aware of your range/his own then the 5x is a massive scare card, I dont see him overbetting all in with a set/straight when our range has a hard time calling him. There aren't any reads in the OP.

Last edited by jambre; 11-30-2015 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:32 PM   #38
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

Jambre I don't understand why you and so many ITT think villain raises 1-pair hands here after he limp/called preflop. This is a really wishful-thinking based read IMO.

Also, if you think villain is competent enough to know what our range is and what his looks like to us why are you not just folding the flop vs the raise? Honestly how often do you expect this hand to go well for you vs a competent TAG or LAG after they raise the flop?

I would think that if villain is competent he is not going to bet the turn with draws so frequently in comparison to the times he has 2-pair+ that you can do anything profitable with an overpair on the turn.

I'm not advocating shoving vs competent villains, only those we think are bad and liable to make a large number of calling mistakes. So I don't think we aren completely disagreeing. What is it that makes you want to call flop vs this particular villain?

Or, to put it another way, what read do you need to warrant calling the flop raise?
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:37 PM   #39
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Hero and Villian have $600 stacks.

Villian (SB) has been playing tight, mostly folding for the hour he was at table.

Hero in BB with AdAh.

UTG calls for $5, Villian (SB) calls, Hero raises to $20. Both players call.
We don't have any quality reads admittedly. However, villain has folded most of the 25-30 hands he's been dealt. One of the hands he didn't fold he limp/called from the SB.

Anyone want to share their conclusions on villain's style from this limited information? Anyone want to give him a range for this preflop action?
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:42 PM   #40
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Jambre I don't understand why you and so many ITT think villain raises 1-pair hands here after he limp/called preflop. This is a really wishful-thinking based read IMO.
Issue is with read, some read V as one type, others read him as another.

If V has been playing tight, his pre-flop action is very telling. V basically completed the action after only one limper in UTG. Without dwelling on the possible dynamic of UTG limper creates, V must have a capped range if he's just completing the blind.

After Hero raises in BB, V's calling range should be even more defined to a lot of PP.

His small flop CR is consistent of someone flopping a set and wanting a call, not someone who's looking to fold hands.

All the signs and tendencies point toward V holding a big hand, and you would need to create a lot of assumptions to justify otherwise.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:18 PM   #41
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

Exactly what SP is saying here. Excellent post, imo. That's a more explained version of what I was saying in post #7, in which I had basically no 1p hands, and not enough reads to see semi-bluffs as enough of his range.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:13 PM   #42
Aust1227
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

Doesn't the sizing of V's turn bet bother anyone?

He bet $480 into $260, right?

Of course this is V dependent. But a normal check raise, followed by a gross overbet is questionable.

Why is he trying to get us to fold? Its almost like the C/R was for value (seemed sized perfectly).. But now he is getting antsy.

GTO isn't my thing. So I won't go into exact percentages.. But this place feels WAY more like TT, JJ, QQ "betting to know where they stand" or a 57 that has turned into a merge play.

I call..

Interestingly enough, I would fold if he bet $130...
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:16 PM   #43
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Doesn't the sizing of V's turn bet bother anyone?

He bet $480 into $260, right?

Of course this is V dependent. But a normal check raise, followed by a gross overbet is questionable.

Why is he trying to get us to fold? Its almost like the C/R was for value (seemed sized perfectly).. But now he is getting antsy.
It's simple. V has MUBS and doesn't want us to get there with one-card straight.

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Originally Posted by Aust1227 View Post
GTO isn't my thing. So I won't go into exact percentages.. But this place feels WAY more like TT, JJ, QQ "betting to know where they stand" or a 57 that has turned into a merge play.
Why would TT - QQ just complete blind in SB?
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:18 PM   #44
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

^ folding to small bets and calling large ones is quite easily exploited.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:18 PM   #45
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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^ folding to small bets and calling large ones is quite easily exploited.
Isn't that the make-up of a perfect opponent, for Hero?
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:22 PM   #46
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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^ folding to small bets and calling large ones is quite easily exploited.
We all have exploitable tendencies, at some point. I just hope I am aware of my own exploits! (BTW, I am aware of this one..)
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:24 PM   #47
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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^ folding to small bets and calling large ones is quite easily exploited.
People who value bet small and bluff large are easily exploited.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:26 PM   #48
Aust1227
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

" Why would TT - QQ just complete blind in SB"

Perhaps because he was scared of AK sucking out on him.. That could be the exact same logic as why he doesn't want the one card straight to suck out on him now that he sees his hand is "good".

We have screamed "WE HAVE A BIG HAND".. So why is this guy trying so hard to get us to lay it down? If he has the monster that his check raise represented, why is he blowing us away?

His bet is just not consistant with the hands he is saying that he has (a set of 78). perhaps he has two pair, and I am misjudging his overbet, in which case, I hope like hell the board pairs!!

I hate the spot, but I am stacking off.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:31 PM   #49
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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Perhaps because he was scared of AK sucking out on him.. That could be the exact same logic as why he doesn't want the one card straight to suck out on him now that he sees his hand is "good".
So he completed SB after UTG limped because he was afraid of AK?

How do you even come up with this line of logic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aust1227 View Post
We have screamed "WE HAVE A BIG HAND".. So why is this guy trying so hard to get us to lay it down? If he has the monster that his check raise represented, why is he blowing us away?
MUBS.

Plus Hero didn't scream "big hand" by calling on a 2-tone board. Hero screamed "I don't have a big hand."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aust1227 View Post
His bet is just not consistant with the hands he is saying that he has (a set of 78). perhaps he has two pair, and I am misjudging his overbet, in which case, I hope like hell the board pairs!!
You still haven't established a range that makes sense.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:36 PM   #50
Ragequit99
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Re: 2/5 Ultra aggression from TAG player

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People who value bet small and bluff large are easily exploited.
True but this V x/r flop small and then overbets the turn. Whatever he's doing he isn't value betting small and bluffing big. He is either value betting small on flop and value betting big on turn or bluffing small on flop and bluffing big on turn.

It also makes little sense to x/r a flop small as a bluff, get called IP and then elect to bluff even bigger on a dangerous turn card when your opponent could have just improved to a straight or have an overpair he isn't inclined to fold. That's a kind of suicidal bluff isn't it?
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