2/5.. 5 handed

Loose open I know, but Hero ($600) raises AT UTG to $20
UTG+1 ($300) calls < new guy that just sat down
BB calls

Flop (~$45): 872
Hero bets $30, V calls

Turn ($105): T
Hero checks, V bets $80, Hero ?

Maybe it's better to bet the turn ourselves but I don't think he's calling with many hands that we beat plus it sucks if we get shoved on, but if we check, he might bet his floats and we can crai OR if he checks behind, we just pot-controlled and can bet good rivers. Or is he flush/set-heavy when he bets big like this OTT?

Gross spot....
V either hit his draw straight or flush OR complete air.
Since we have no reads we have to fold since we are not getting the right price to draw.

Calling is bad since we will likely face a huge river bet with his both his value hands and bluffs.
Raising is bad since V can come over the top and commit us with potentially 20% equity to call

Fold and wait for a better spot.

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Should play better as a bet-f/c/s depending on sizings. AP it's prob a fold when he bets this much. Even readless his range is awfully strong and you're just not deep enough to do much about it. You already know ATo UTG has inherent problems for LLSNL and this HH epitomizes it well.

Bet the turn

No way am I check /folding top pair plus nut flush draw here

As played I would probably shove for value

I don't think the open 5 handed is that bad as long as the table isn't too sticky. I am betting the turn unless I have a good reason not to. I don't think villain shows up with a set here most of the time. I also dont think villain will be calling a turn c/shove with worse hands often but I guess it depends on villain. Not a slam dunk shove but I think (betting ott)>shoving>calling(>folding).

I think we double barrel here with the equity we picked up on the turn.
AP our hand is way too strong to fold. Idk about a shove though cos we fold out some of his value hands that we're ahead of. I call.

I like the check ott. We're not really giving a free card to anything substantial. If he floated flop he probably bluffs and I guess I don't really see him taking the card w the pair+straight draw if he has it.

I think once he bets turn we can just get it in at this stack size. Lots of his combos draws/sets should've gotten it on otf I think we should be charging the pair+draw portion of his range here while we still can.

Can we really b/f turn at these stack sizes? What size are you betting turn? Say you bet $60, and

a) he shoves, I guess you could fold.

b) he calls, river is a blank, now what?

LOL; this never gets old. Should be mandatory to give estimate of wait time.

I was in a similar spot yesterday, and I think the worst thing you can do here is underestimate your equity. A lot of the time he is just seizing an opportunity, and he has no idea how strong you are. With this particular stack size, I would lean towards a shove. Albeit a crying shove. It's just super hard to play the vast majority of rivers well at all.

^ Shove as in check/shove or just open shove turn?

If you think you are ahead then a shove is fine since no $$ will go into the pot once a the 4 card flush hits and V does not have the nuts.
Most

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20 otf, 35-45 when turn brings any equity. The even slightly larger sizing moves too close to getting stacks in which is the opposite of what you want here. Ideally the strength of the bet bet line itself, though smaller sizing, can get a fold on the turn (and occassionally on the flop) but more importantly you will more often get to see the river at your price.
Going 20/30/60+ and getting called at each street creates an insanely thin value range for yourself by the time you get to the river, but when sizing is small, he remains wide enough/enough stack behind that you'll still have a few bluffs available and might even find fold from his 99/9T/JJr and still have a reasonable VB available on A/T rivs

^ I get your point, but assuming we don't have to worry about balance at these levels, are you sizing it small with sets/overpairs/flushes too on these boards instead of going for max value from these stations?

5 handed I think the open is fine
Flop looks good
Turn I would probably bet, as played I wouldn't fold to his bet
Since you checked now river is tricky

OOP WITH initiative I generally default to smaller bets with my entire range against an unknown on early streets. I say generally becasue there will always be boards that are just horrible for both my perceived range and actual hand, so to continue on those ill at least some nutty BD equity (like AsT on 872ss). I'll mix in some coverage hands UTG so Im not capped on 775s type boards but all in all I just do everything in my power not to become an OOP caller at any point in any hand.

So you're always folding when you check OOP and never "bluff-catching"?

Grunch

Preflop is fine. A10o is about the weakest hand I'd open with though.

Flop is a great bet and good sizing. A10o with no spade I'd check/fold.

Turn. I'd check/call. If we had AJ instead, I'd check/raise. A10 has showdown value.

With no reads check/call turn, check/fold non spade rivers expecting to win sometimes with a check behind and get bluffed by floats that double very rarely. On spade rivers I like a small lead like 80. Obv not a high EV play, but it's still positive considering we win enough when it goes check/check.

Leading turn is fine too, but I prefer to do it once we have some reads on how they play so we know whether to value bet, check/bluffcatch, x/f non-spade rivers.

Pre is fine 5 handed
Flop is fine
Turn is a bet, we can get called by hands that picked up draws like 9T and JT.

AP call turn and check/fold river. I'm with SunChips, I'm expecting the river to go check/check a lot and we'll win a lot of the time.

IMO there is just rarely enough reliable information available to make OOP bluff-catching anything more than a marginal-at-best play in most 2/5 games. How often is the term 'value calling' discussed in these threads? There are times ofc when ck for value > betting, but those spots are always more defined as either option is +EV.

In your hand, ck-c $80 is a leak and is simply a naked FD in this spot as your AT outs are often dead on this turn. He's too shallow to ck-r for value with near zero FE attached and you have absolutely zero info to make anything but the cleanest of decisions once you ck.

There always will be spots where you have the prime bluff catcher and ck-c > ck-f, but AsT here doesn't qualify. You can 'make your life easier' by sticking with the program and dumping ATo and the like UTG. I understand the reasons behind wanting to mix up your EP opens, but there are a number of other combos available that have better deception/equity vs calling ranges that will have good playability on more textures which is critical to OOP ranges in almost any game.

How is this not a value minimization scheme? Even the argument that c/c turn is superior to c/f turn is suspect.

Oh, he bet the turn when we checked, so he must have the nuts. Look up weak-tight in the dictionary and see if there's any pictures.

AP = as played. I'm not advocating we check turn. In fact, I said specifically

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative...

I can read, and I often do when I quote.

Turn is a bet, but now that we checked, just call and check fold the river. Now I get it.

Why bet the turn when villain will do it for you? Villains calling range is the same as his betting range, however by checking, we don't run the risk of getting raised. The only hands villain might not bet here are hands like 67 and a7. But even those hands he will bet sometimes. If it's the type of guy who's not going to bet worse hands, he's also not going to call with worse hands.

I like a turn bet here only if we are against someone where we can value-bet brick rivers. For those who advocate a turn bet, what is your plan on rivers? If it's check/fold then I can't see how betting turn can be better. If it's bet/fold then I can get behind it, but i'd rather not bet this thin against an uknown. And bet/calling vs. an uknown here seems like suicide.

PF open is fine 5-handed. ATo is profitable from MP for me over a pretty large sample of online 6-max, so I can't imagine it's not profitable at live 2/5. I'm pretty much always opening ATo from the HJ at LLSNL so this really is no different.

I'm betting the turn myself for value as advocated by most in this thread as I expect him to check back a lot with hands like 8x, 99, etc. that will call if we bet. Folding to a raise against an unknown. River depends on the specific card. I'm definitely value betting spades (with certain reads I love checking river spades but we don't have those here), value betting off-suit 2-5 and Aces, c/f on a 6/9/J, c/deciding on an off-suit Q/K (usually folding since I don't expect him to have many hands he's going to turn into a bluff there).

As played, I'm not folding with TPTK + NFD as we should easily have 30% equity against his range and I expect him to play relatively straight-forwardly on the river after we c/c turn. Leading river when we improve, otherwise c/f.