2/5 $1k max buy, Hero ($1200) is viewed as tight if not nitty but has shown to be sticky in a few big hands.

V1 is MAWG ($1000) - Seems TAG, has not shown down many hands and has not been overly active but has been very aggressive when in the hand. First session with V1. Likely has bluffs based on aggression and frequencies. Tends to call pre when limping EP.

V2 is Late 20s WG covers - Loose Reg who is not aggressive enough for his VPIP but has bluffs and can be aggressive in spots. Hero has played several sessions with V2.

V1 limps UTG+2, V2 limps the button, Hero limps KJ in the SB, BB checks his option. I'm sure a good portion of the board bets this pre, but given V1 and the BB and being OOP I opted to just see a cheap flop this time.

Flop ($18): A T 3
Checks around

Turn ($18): A T 3 Q
Hero leads for $15, BB folds, V1 raises to $45, V2 pauses for a few seconds then calls. Hero?

Thought process. I range V1 on lower flush draws, QJ, KQ, KJ, J9, maybe some QT but he probably bets that with only button behind OTF. With his aggression I would expect him to bet Ax OTF but he could have been running some fancy line. V2s button range is wider, I range him on QT, Q3, KQ, QJ, K3, again he should be betting his Ax and KT. He also has some diamond draws. Perhaps either could have some Jx type of combo draw as well.

Now with $130 in the pot I would much rather 3 bet than flat. If we flat then are we leading all non diamond non paired board rivers? If we're leading river OOP anyways then it's better to raise now to charge the draws right? 3 betting blows our Vs off bluffs but since it's multi way there's a better chance at least one of them has enough value or enough of a draw to chase. Open to all suggestions. Also what sizing is optimal if we want to 3! with a raise and call in front? $145, $200? How much can we x/c if a diamond hits or the board pairs?

Flame away.

Just grab a glob of chips and put them into the pot. $200-225 seems right.

$200 and fade a crappy turn card

I like to not rep the nuts. Call. Ck all rivers. You’ll know what to do on clean ones.

I'm sure OP bet/3b turns alot in a limped pot on the regular...

Threebet because the raiser very likely also has the nuts. It's a limped pot which should rule out the big sets and AQ. He presumably didn't check a super wet board like that OTF with something like 33 or AT. The conclusion is that he made his hand on the turn. That could be QT, but I'm not going to flat here and let two players draw for free on the off chance he has QT and still bets it when whichever action killing river comes down.

If raiser also has the nuts, letting the other guy draw is purely lighting money on fire. If the raiser has QT, that's 4 outs to add to whatever the other guy has, probably like 8 if he has a FD. That's way too many outs to be giving up for free with no prospects of snapping off any bluffs and very uncertain prospects of getting further value.

Edit: Whatever amount you threebet should rule out the third player getting a good price with a FD, bearing in mind that check folding the river on a diamond is going to be a hard thing to do. Might go as much as 300-350. There's not really any reason to keep it smaller because I'm not expecting value here, the point of the raise is hand protection.

Lolllllll

The pot is $18 on the turn dude and we’re $1000-1200 deep.

$200. Lead non-diamond rivers. Can't count on opponents leading in a limped pot and flop check through. Yea, there was turn raise but with BTN calling behind, V1 may slow-down on river.

That makes me want to call more.

There's way too much value to be had raising. What does calling accomplish? You give hands with lots of equity a free chance to catch up and then river goes ch ch ch when the board bricks.

AX, KX, QX, QT, Q3s, slow played 33 are all going to stick around.

If you raise turn and they fold they didn't have a hand they were going to put any more into the pot with unless they caught up

If you give them a free card, the only hands that will catch up that you beat AND will pay you a decent amount are hands like 24, 45, J8, J9 that make their straight on the river - very unlikely for this to happen.

You lose to all rivered flushes and fullhouses.

By checking, what will most likely happen on the River is you don't get paid on a brick or you go broke to a bigger hand.

As played, 3! the Turn.

There is value to be had calling as well and sometimes, as you know, calling EV>raising EV when you have the nuts. I also don't have a problem laying the right 'price' for my opponents because they aren't making more money from me when they hit and I'm making more from them when they don't, particularly in this spot.

Can't be true. You are keeping both players far wider when you bet-call than bet-3b. You are also facing a raise from a somewhat inactive but ag V1 and an IP cold call from a player with some bluffs/moves - neither of these ranges are check heavy on brick rivers and I expect to see black chips go in with made hands down to 2pair, maybe an ace, and some bluffs.

It's not like bet-3b is some idiotic play, but to me it really goes against the grain of what may range would do here in this spot. Again, I think it's just too easy to play against unless your opponents are mouth-breathers.
The only hand we should have here that would bet-3b would be KJdd which we never really have as a SB limp.

Thanks all for feedback. Consensus is to go ahead and rep the nuts with around a $200 sizing. This sizing gives V1 about 2:1 on a call with one card coming, and V2 3:1 which seems fine.

@ChrisV - What is your thought process for adding another 100-150 for protection. If we go $300 we are instead giving V1 around 1.6:1 and if he still finds a call V2 gets around 2.6:1. I'm sure you guys have played these spots far more often that I have. Have you found this type of increased sizing to generate significantly more protection vs the consensus $200 range?

@Amanaplan - Appreciate your dissenting opinion and I also didn't want to rep the nuts which is why I paused and posted this hand but being OOP 3 ways it seems like the best way to realize max equity. River could easily check around even if one of the Vs has a 2 pair value hand. River could also end up costing us the hand and more money.

Results:

our hand being disguised is certainly not worth letting flushes and full house draws, draw for free.

You expect multiple black chips to go into a $150 pot on a brick river? Cmon man. We have the nuts on a wet board OOP. Get your value while there is still a card to come.

Hadn't seen this post before my last reply. I see your reasoning here. Agree if I flat and check there's a high probability one of the Vs fire. If it's V1 who fires and V2 who calls I can raise bricks for value. If it's V2 who fires I probably flat to induce a call from V1 as V2 is unlikely to be able to call a river raise. If we give each V and 50% chance of betting river light or as a bluff then we are making a lot of money on brick rivers. Hard to measure this against the likelihood of getting calls with a 3! OTT and account for the 1 out of 3 times the river is a pair or a diamond and we cant continue though.

Imo there is nothing wrong with allowing villains to play perfectly. We need to raise here because they should be drawing strong so I don't think there is anything wrong with flipping our hand over and going 100 straight OTT, then checking each and every river

Have no problem with the 3bet but why so much? i'd just raise enough where they have to call or they are making a mistake, then i'm checking every river to see if they want to stab and giving myself a chance to fold for free on diamond rivers, also allows them to value bet when the board pairs and makes them 2p or trips

i don't think we ever have a flush draw here so w/e, let them play perfectly on the turn and see about the river

i like raising but i don't like raising to an amount that makes folding correct for them

Given our holding it's less likely they are both on draws and our relative position to the turn raiser creates a number of very profitable scenarios for the rivers we want. There's money to be made here, not hands to be protected, and I think it's extremely easy to argue a raise is losing value compared to a call.
I see this all the time where some player, even a reg, even a 'good' reg, will only have the nuts (and everyone knows it) and somehow feel satisfied with a result like what went down in this hand.

It's already a decent result heading to the river because of the turn raise/call action adding another $60 to the pot. A player who has a turn raise here should have river bets as well and I'd like to keep $900 in play instead of watching them muck everything.

It's like that routine where you can say opening AA UTG to 200bb is +EV because you win always and protect your hand to the max, but it doesn't compare to the EV of smaller sizing.

I'm not satisfied with the result of the hand but I'm also not convinced they were very strong or would put more money in the pot unimproved.

If you really feel that way (about us only having the nuts) then we have 7 combos of K2, K4, K5, K6, K7, K8 and K9 we can bet/3bet the flop with for balance since we're never getting called by a hand worse than the nuts.

Some spots you don’t balance for the sake of balance, and trying to find balance for bet-3bets on bway boards in limped pots oop seems a bit far fetched. These look like ckc hands to me.

Amanaplan winning this thread. You guys keep getting the nuts and endlessly blasting like you solved poker tho.

“You only have the nuts when you b/3b.”

* provides reasonable b/3b combos *

“No no those won’t work.”

If you 3b you win the $100 or something pretty much every time, since they'll both fold knowing exactly what you have. Johnny lists combos that can be bluffs but nobody ever takes a check flop and b/3b line like this. Whether they should is another question but I don't see it happening.

If you call it's with the expectation of getting more money in the pot on the river against worse hands. I don't see either V value betting a worse hand based on action pre and on the flop. Since it was limped pre and checked through I don't think anyone has anything very good on AT3Q board, and I don't expect someone to value bet QT OTR given the turn action. I don't think anyone fires river into two players as a bluff after we pot/call turn.

To the call turn crowd, what do you expect to happen on the river that gets us more money?

Just cause you say it doesn't make it true.