2/5 at local casino

Table is playing pretty weak passive.

Relevant stacks/reads:
Hero $900
Playing TAG but slightly wider opening range and more aggresive than usual because of table
V1 $600
Older man, plays a lot of hands and is fairly passive. Lets you know when he has a nutted hand
V2(BTN) $1200
Middle aged fairly aggro/decent reg but we haven't played a ton together. Pretty much plays every pot I open if he has position and in general thinks I'm full of **** a lot of the time.

1 limp, V1 limps in EP, fold to me in MP with AA. I make it $25
Folds to V2 on btn who calls, folds back to V1 who calls.

Flop($85) Kx7h4x
V1 checks, I bet $55, both V2 and V1 call
Turn($250) Ah
V1 checks, Hero??

What's our best line here? If we are betting what should our sizing be?

I'm usually not a fan of ever slowplaying but on this board we forcing a lot of hands we beat, specifically Kx hands, to fold. When I do bet this turn though I expect V2 to be calling me fairly light knowing this is a good barrel card for me.

With two villains I'm never checking here. We improved to a monster hand and would like to get stack in on river if possible. Better to assume at least one villain has two pair/smaller set/added flush draw on turn and bet $175/$200. That V2 will call us light is just a bonus.

If it was just V1, with his short stack and hand that is probably crushed here, you could make a case for checking and trying for value on river. With V2 I would bet anyway, he will call light and has a big stack. We need to get more money in on turn to shove river.

its hard to bet a lot here and get paid, which would need v1 and v2 to be calling your flop bet and floating with AX

i think betting small and looking weak and then bombing the river would be profitable

I have a hard time thinking that you can get stacks in by bombing turn and river. Maybe bet 130 or something and like 275 on the river trying to target a kx or something. Also checking and betting big otr, but if v2 bets, you find yourself in a wierd spot.

Did v1 check?

My line of thinking is to check here. I'm concerned we're not going to get weak hands to call a turn + a river bet if we barrel barrel here. If we check, we open up opportunities to check/raise the turn or potentially call the turn and check/raise the river. We also give V2 a chance to bluff/semi bluff. If V2 checks the turn, we're probably getting paid off if we bet the river, and we'd make the same amount of money as if we bet the turn, got called, and didn't get paid on the river. Unless 65 is in their hands, they have showdown value here and V2 will probably call a river bet (after we check the turn) light just like he would call a turn bet light.

And the way I see it, if either of them has aces up or better, we're going to get a lot of money in at some point regardless of what we do here. And I think checking the turn gives us a better chance of winning more vs. weaker hands, so I like that play. It seems unlikely that either one would have 65 or backdoor hearts.

I don't care if a decent amount of both opponents ranges are weak. How much value are we realistically getting by getting creative and finding calls bc our line looks fos.

We have a big stack behind us in a pot that's quickly growing with two customers who have shown interest. I'm doing everything possible to play for stacks.

I'd bet 150, and if both call I'd shove otr. If I got one caller, then I'd bet 1/2-2/3psb against V2, and shove if V1 calls.

On one hand, you acknowledge that both villains' ranges are weak, and on the other, you want to play for stacks.

This is a classic case of blowing fish out of the water.

I bet $150~$175.. oh well if you lose them. Passive V1 should follow with Kx if he has it.

Old man doesn't pay much attention to anything but his own hand. A is a scared card and $150 is a scary bet.

Well what is your alternative, RP? Are you trying to c/r or c/c? What's your river plan?

The $150 bet sounds best to me but I'm open to other suggestions.

i agree with RP

yall are giving Vs credit to level 3 thinking (ie, 'the A is a scare card, so hero should barrel it with all his ****, so i should get creative with my weak KX and make a move')

betting small keeps your customers interested without scaring them away

also, the A definitely hits our perceived range if hero cbets a high percentage of flops

V1 is not floating with Ax, so he's pretty much Kx or bluff catcher at this point. A bet of $150 is folding out V1.

V2 is pegged as an aggressor, and his flop calling range is definitely wider than V1. He can also recognize that V1's range as Kx/bluff catcher, and that we're checking most of c-bet range < Kx.

Plus V2 called our c-bet not knowing whether V1 would over-call, so if we barrel here, V2 will have to be concerned of V1 as well.

IMO, best if we check.

It's a bit more interesting if V2 bets a certain amount, then a tougher decision may be whether to CR and how much. KQhh or Kxhh are definitely in play here.

thanks for explaining...

op even describes V2 as being suspicious of him, so why would we ever give him a chance to not make a huge mistake by calling here if there is a chance he thinks we are bluffing or fos? just doesn't make sense to me.

for those who say that slow playing is the best move bc both opponents likely have weak ranges on that flop, what is the line you suggest? check turn and most likely allow the turn to check through then value bet the river for 150? sounds like a classic case of being happy making the minimum more often than making a **** load.

i'm more than willing to risk blowing fish out of the water for those times that they can't fold or just think your fos and will play for stacks when they have no business doing so. we have a huge hand against two opponents who called sizable bets on a dry flop. i'm definitely keeping up with the aggression.

and 150 isn't even a large bet here. i'd be surprised if it got folds as much as people expect it to. or perhaps im bias bc no one ever folds to me bc i'm a punk kid.

Hey, don't steal my classic line.

Effective is $900 against V2, $600 against V1...

I aim high, but I don't have unrealistic expectation of winning a $1200 pot, let alone $1800 given the action and the board.

I could go for something more realistic, or like you said, a classic case of making minimum because you are giving them every reason to fold.

Checking is not the best option. Villain thinks we are fos, so we make him think we are fos.

200$

reverse the situation and look at the hh from V's perspective

would you really advocate for him to call 200 ott with KQ and be up against a probable shove otr with second pair 'just because hero might be fos' ?

Given your reads (especially on v2) I think we need to bet turn between 150 and 175, while trying to get stacks in otr.

Just for thought, what's thoughts on this line?

If the unlikely scenario that both Vs call then we bet big on river obviously.

If V2 calls, how about making a value bet of 200 otr, giving him juicy odds to bluff catch as well as disguising our range for thin value bets otr.

Thanks for input and discussion everyone. I am definitely on the side of betting here given my reads on V2 and the amount of value we can get if he thinks I am full of it. I think fogodchao has nailed it on the head. No reason to check when it likely checked through and we make a small value bet river and make not as much as we possibly could if we bet and keep someone in the pot, especially if it is V2.

Agree. I'd bet $175 to look a little more scared though.

Bet 170, hope v2 calls. Pray for Jhearts on river so you can shove

you have a lot of classic lines

I think my default here would be to just bet around 175, and hope to pick up some callers or if you are lucky someone has AK, A7, A4, or a slowplayed set. If I get called, I’d often pot or even overbet a non-8, 3, or heart river. This board hits Hero’s 3-barrel perceived range hard, so I’d rather try to get max value from a set, aces up, or skeptical opponent than squeeze a crying call from weaker hands.

However, if you can expect V2 OTB to bet most of the time when you check to the turn to him, then I could make an argument for checking. Because if V2 bets, he likely picks up V1 as a caller and by the time it gets back to Hero the pot has grown to over $600 against what may be two weaker ranges. But, the question is whether you can count on V2 to bet. Based on his suspicion of Hero and the dry flop, I think he can call the flop wide IP with weak hands like: PPs, 7x, 4x, and maybe air and gutshots. If it was heads up and Hero checks the turn, V2 probably turns a lot of these hands into a bluff on the ace. But, V2 has to respect V1’s call of two players on the flop. Because of this, I think it is less likely he turns these weaker hands into a bluff OTT three-way.