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Old 10-01-2018, 06:46 PM   #26
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Well having him reluctantly call is one of the better outcomes, so if the turn is a 2 the raise is probably working out, but that doesn't mean it's good overall. 125, 250 and checking air is a better outcome than what you would get, which is raise flop and he gets out for just the 125, you don't get that 250, but you're still getting stacked by better.



"Raising to play for stacks" isn't a reason, it's just a description of what is happening. When trying to exploit someone, allow them to make their mistakes. The mistake of this player isn't "calling station", it's that they're too aggressive. Therefore, allow them to continue to be aggressive.


Valid point, I didnít mind folding out worse in this particular hand since I had AK, JT, and a lot of 1 pair hands in his range. His off card can be anything as evidenced by the results. If I had two pair+ or at least AQ Iíd be more comfortable letting him barrel. I tend to agree that flatting is probably the most +EV. I still tend to overprotect some of my top pair hands when I feel I have a range advantage. Especially when my kicker is this weak.
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Old 10-01-2018, 06:54 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
If we flop TP and then fold to an overcard on the turn when he bets, then our strategy isn't working.

Widen your value 3b range a bit pre and attack this guy with a stronger range. 3b with KTs, KJo, 55-77, etc for value and buckle up for the ride


Thanks, I was looking for these spots but didnít find any. Thinking back I guess I was pretty card dead. My 3 bets were getting through but I just wasnít getting KTs+, KJo+, or any weak pairs against his opens. Not sure I would have pulled the trigger that low range wise but given my image and VPIP/PFR I agree I should have.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:22 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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When trying to exploit someone, allow them to make their mistakes. The mistake of this player isn't "calling station", it's that they're too aggressive. Therefore, allow them to continue to be aggressive.

Note that some Agg villains stay aggressive into aggression. And shading these players it is often better to bet and raise because they will reraise, and check/raise and stuff. So u donít always just take the most passive line to exploit betting mistakes
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:23 AM   #29
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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This was part of my thinking. I indeed was pretty OMC for 4 hours and took a shot with a vulnerable hand. I raised flop precisely because I didnít want to give free shots at 2 pair, a straight, or an overcard and would rather take the decent pot than have to fold turn while losing less.
Sometimes hands and spots donít line-up, especially over a small sample of 125 hands or so. You may not get a chance that day, that weekend, or that week. Patience is still the #1 differentiator, imho.
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:27 AM   #30
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Sometimes hands and spots donít line-up, especially over a small sample of 125 hands or so. You may not get a chance that day, that weekend, or that week. Patience is still the #1 differentiator, imho.
Can't count the number of times I've sat at an amazing table and just got super stoked because I knew I was going to have an absolutely incredibly profitable day. The perfect mix of amateurish play, aggression, stack sizes, etc. are right in front of me. The only thing that can stop me is if I'm completely card dead and miss every flop.

Yeah, you know the ending of that story. 3 hours later, you're stuck for a buy-in and two other decent players on the table have huge stacks and all the donators have since busted and now you're on a limp/passive table and you just feel awful for an opportunity lost.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:44 AM   #31
Paolo C
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

If Villain folded when you showed aggression back three or four times previously then the fact that he called your raise on the flop may suggest he has a made hand on the flop here. Probably Qx. Maybe it took V a while to call because he put you on Qx as well and was worried about his kicker. I Donít Think V has two pair or better otherwise would have been quicker to call. K on the turn gives him a chance to bluff. You pretty much got the scenario you were looking for so I think itís a call given your read of this player.

You did put yourself in an awkward position though.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:36 PM   #32
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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I am not the preflop po po for sure as I have been known to play a trash hand from time to time. But QTo with the idea that we stack off on most T high and Q high boards seems strange for you. If it is a live read thing, then fine...no problem with it. But if it is targeting this guy and maybe semi tilty for some reason, then i don't like it.

AP, I think the turn card is probably the worst in the deck for you and given that SLAG paused on the flop and then led the turn for a stack committing amount makes it a clear fold for me. You EASILY could have KQ here and he is showing he doesn't care.
Somehow missed this post. Agree, not my normal play at all. The call WAS pretty much targeting SLAG though as I had watched so many hands play out the same. He had shown a few bluffs, from both early and late position. His sizing was always aggressive. I thought there was a great chance that his cbet would fold out the entire field (as it did). If I'm sitting on the button in this case with top pair I truly felt I had a 80/20 ish range advantage (as I did). It was just a nightmare turn. And the only reason I didn't describe V as a maniac was because he was capable of applying pressure in spots like this and didn't blindly barrel 100% against all opponents (which requires at least some thought). Obviously I'm still trying to make live reads and if he 3 bets all in on the flop and looks strong I can easily muck. I just meant to indicate I would be playing my top pair hands extremely big. But I read the flop weakness and as you stated, the K also hits my pre flop call range and flop raise range. For him to decide to play for stacks there is so strong. I do feel it was the worst card in the deck but I really hated folding. After he shows the 5 we were probably ahead but there's a small chance he can have K5 there as well (not much different than Q5 or A5). He plays bigger games and I thought this hand may be a preview of what 10/10 feels like. Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:38 PM   #33
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Note that some Agg villains stay aggressive into aggression. And shading these players it is often better to bet and raise because they will reraise, and check/raise and stuff. So u donít always just take the most passive line to exploit betting mistakes
Agree, especially when most of the table is reacting by going passive leaving tons of dead money in the pot.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:39 PM   #34
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
Sometimes hands and spots donít line-up, especially over a small sample of 125 hands or so. You may not get a chance that day, that weekend, or that week. Patience is still the #1 differentiator, imho.
Noted, I realize pre-flop is what got us here. But thought I could still learn something from post flop turnout other than "fold pre".
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:49 PM   #35
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by Paolo C View Post
If Villain folded when you showed aggression back three or four times previously then the fact that he called your raise on the flop may suggest he has a made hand on the flop here. Probably Qx. Maybe it took V a while to call because he put you on Qx as well and was worried about his kicker. I Donít Think V has two pair or better otherwise would have been quicker to call. K on the turn gives him a chance to bluff. You pretty much got the scenario you were looking for so I think itís a call given your read of this player.

You did put yourself in an awkward position though.
Agree. SLAGs most likely holding is indeed Q5. When I raise flop, he knows he's beat. If I have less behind I think he folds. I can only assume that he decided to continue only because in addition to spiking his 5 he could potentially bluff at K, J, T turns. Maybe he even goes for the A as well. Which again to me is different than a maniac who spews at all the wrong times. The other aspect that made me want to call was that if he had made his hand on the turn he probably would get more by checking the turn. But to his credit he played is big hands aggressively as well. Good to hear at least one advocate for a call as I took so much time in the tank although perhaps your feedback is influenced by results and knowing V had a 5.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:58 PM   #36
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Noted, I realize pre-flop is what got us here. But thought I could still learn something from post flop turnout other than "fold pre".
how could you possibly learn when you dismiss anyone who doesn't support what you were thinking


ok fine you played a hand that should have been mucked to target V

you hit top pair

choices
let him barrel all 3 streets and call him down
or raise
you downsized raise to give him 4-1 to call
then when you know he's going to continue to apply pressure you now doubt your plan and fold

all the fold pre comments are valid because you have no idea how to play V post flop
so not to dump on you but your plan was to target him
you raised min to GII so do it; its an easy shove over the $500
did you think he called your flop raise to check into you on the turn ?????
he's not slowing down now, as I said yesterday he's taking a stand

you had a plan preflop
hit top pair so now follow thru
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:30 PM   #37
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
how could you possibly learn when you dismiss anyone who doesn't support what you were thinking


ok fine you played a hand that should have been mucked to target V

you hit top pair

choices
let him barrel all 3 streets and call him down
or raise
you downsized raise to give him 4-1 to call
then when you know he's going to continue to apply pressure you now doubt your plan and fold

all the fold pre comments are valid because you have no idea how to play V post flop
so not to dump on you but your plan was to target him
you raised min to GII so do it; its an easy shove over the $500
did you think he called your flop raise to check into you on the turn ?????
he's not slowing down now, as I said yesterday he's taking a stand

you had a plan preflop
hit top pair so now follow thru
You clearly have trouble with reading comprehension so I'll point out a few places where I addressed and agreed with differing views from posts that were actually constructive. I dismissed your earlier post because just like this one it added no value. You make a baseless assertion that V is making a stand with insight into what he's making a stand with and how Hero should respond. Now you troll on about how OP can't learn because I dismissed who? You? Obviously the K is the worst card in the deck for us. If turn is not A or K Hero jams and wins unless a 5 hits. This post was supposed to be about how to handle the worst card in the deck on the turn against a difficult opponent. But feel free to get your troll rocks off if you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
"Understand the fold pre comments"
"play is questionable"
"Valid point,...I tend to agree that flatting is probably the most +EV."
"Not sure I would have pulled the trigger that low range wise but given my image and VPIP/PFR I agree I should have. "
etc...
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:53 PM   #38
bigdaddycope
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

Entire hand is spew...call PF is losing but it's not completely terrible.


Flop raise is just complete spew. "Let's fold out his air (which apparently he somehow has betting this size into 3 ppl {I doubt it}) and lets get murdered by his value range.

This is 100% bored/frustrated live poker play where we decide before the cards are even dealt that we're going to go after a certain player just b/c we have the BTN.

You may not think it, but I'd imagine this is what's going on psychologically whether or not you realize it.


This is coming from someone who is all too guilty of this vs. spewy players in live poker.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:54 PM   #39
snowman
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

I post this for newbies

assumption based on OP posts

played poor hand selection preflop to target V

assumption on Op posts

OP states v folded to Op's aggression 3-4 times previously

Op states V will 3 barrel with air based on
"Likes to apply relentless pressure but will fold to aggression without a draw. "

V leads for $125
OP down sizes raise down giving V 4-1 odds with plan of GII
?????? what was your plan if V came over the top and shoved

??????? if you knew he would fold unless he had a draw why not size up and realize some fold equity

otherwise raise is worthless just call
as OP stated V "Likes to apply relentless pressure"
so V's betting turn no matter what card comes

now a King comes so V bets this scare card because like OP stated
"Likes to apply relentless pressure "

OP states "Likes to apply relentless pressure but will fold to aggression without a draw. "

so J10 gets there but he delay called so not likely
AK gets there ; possible
Q bad kicker or JJ more likely caused delay

comes down to raise of flop with a reason of setting up to GII bad decision

let aggressors value own themselves

also the fact some of us get under your skin shows you need work on your mental game as well

good luck on the felt
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:09 PM   #40
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by bigdaddycope View Post
Entire hand is spew...call PF is losing but it's not completely terrible.


Flop raise is just complete spew. "Let's fold out his air (which apparently he somehow has betting this size into 3 ppl {I doubt it}) and lets get murdered by his value range.

This is 100% bored/frustrated live poker play where we decide before the cards are even dealt that we're going to go after a certain player just b/c we have the BTN.

You may not think it, but I'd imagine this is what's going on psychologically whether or not you realize it.


This is coming from someone who is all too guilty of this vs. spewy players in live poker.
Already addressed the flop raise earlier in the thread. I was content with taking it down against this V even though it wasn't the max EV line. If he calls it's a bonus as long as an A or K doesn't hit the turn. Anything less than the perfect line is spew? I actually wasn't looking to get agro on the button with any two cards. I made the pre flop decision after looking. Both position and V were big factors but I respected his play and wasn't looking for spots to target him directly as much as look for spots where I could simultaneously exploit his aggression and pick up a quick $240 if I flop top pair (which isn't bad at 2/5). He absolutely showed cbet bluffs from early position and due to his image almost every pot he was in was 3 ways plus. His sizing was always 2/3 to full pot, probably mostly around 3/4. It wasn't every hand, but it was often enough to lure me into a -EV pre flop call due to the huge perceived upside.

Last edited by c0rnBr34d; 10-04-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:15 PM   #41
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

@snowman - All of your "points" were addressed earlier in the thread, not going to waste time revisiting. Read first, then write. I promise you no one in this thread is under my skin but thanks for your concern. If the guy who had his post deleted for "momma" jokes didn't do it, your zero value add post followed by re-hashing of already stated points certainty didn't do it. Apologies if my tone gets a bit harsh for your liking.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:44 PM   #42
bigdaddycope
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

Are you looking for validation?

Because it seems like you're looking for validation.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:25 PM   #43
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Originally Posted by bigdaddycope View Post
Are you looking for validation?

Because it seems like you're looking for validation.


No, expected flames. Was mostly curious about best possible turn decision as played. Got some good feedback on all streets though
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:22 AM   #44
snowman
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

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Are you looking for validation?

Because it seems like you're looking for validation.
+1
someone need a hug ?
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Old 10-05-2018, 07:43 PM   #45
Homey D. Clown
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Re: 2/5 Turn decision vs thinking SLAG

Don't posts hands if you can't take the heat.

This one hurts my eyes. I don't even think pre-flop is that terrible in a vacuum, but it definitely is if you're doing this post-flop. The fact that your whole plan was to auto-stack-off on a Q or T high flop even before the flop was dealt makes it even worse imo.
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