Hero new to table within last 30 mins . Been active so far , and have won a few pots without showdown.

VillIan is 40-50 white guy , def a rec and seems pretty fishy from what I've noticed so far but like I said I've been here for less than 30 min .

Hand

2 limps to Hero (1600) in HJ and I look down at AJss and raise to 30. V (1200) calls out of the big blind and both limpers call . 4 ways to flop .

Jx 5h 8h

Checks to hero who fires $80 . VillIan calls all others fold.

Turn

Jx 5h 8h 9x

This time villian leads into me for $160. I think for a little bit and pop it to $385. This sends villian into the tank and he eventually calls .

River

Jx 5h 8h 9x Jh

Flush draw hits the river along with my trip jacks.

VillIan checks . Hero checks.

Thoughts?

I don't understand the turn raise

Interesting hand.

I guess he's trying to buy himself a free river.

OP, what do you think V is leading out OTT? I don't see much that you're ahead of, on that card, except some semi-bluffs like JT, pair+FD.

I don't like the turn raise at all. When V donks turn it's pretty likely the 9 hit him in some way. J9, 98, 76, 99 and QhTh just moved ahead of you (the 9 is a pretty bad card for you). Hands that the 9 hits that you're still ahead of are 9hxh and T9 (though the 9 isn't actually a great card for T9). I could get behind folding, but if I'm continuing I'm going to call not raise.

Agreed with river check back.

It seems to me that the villian is trying to buy himself a cheap river . If he had a monster most ppl are inclined to trap a young aggressive player like myself

Ugh, villan puts us in a real dumb spot on the turn here. I feel like we need to call, I think if we have a bit more info on villan I can find a fold. I feel like villan has polarised himself here so I think we have to call but I'm just not happy about it. Raising is bad, we can't do it for value as we don't beat his value range and so all raising does is make him fold all worse hands......
Against a good lag with the right image we could raise as a merge here, but against a fish it's pretty bad.
I Like the river check.

Doesn't raising charge his combo draws which imo is a large part of his range? Like I said I am discounting value hands due to his flat on flop and I would also assume he would be more likely to check raise this turn than lead if he had a staight or set.

Calling puts in tough spot on most rivers I think which is why I don't like it

^ if we look at villans possible draws on the flop, lots of hh combos, some 67, some 910 draws are in his calling range, amongst some value hands. The 9 on the turn gets 6,7 there, but other than that doesn't really help much else, j10hh possibly and obviously gives 910 middle pair. If villan is going to play a draw aggressively they surely raise the flop bet. The more I look at this the more I feel like a turn fold is the play here, it really looks like either 6,7 or j9, maybe 8,9 it has to be a made hand on the turn. If villan is sophisticated enough to know this bet is polarising his range to made hands or air, we can call against his air, but at this level I really feel like this is never a bluff.
Raising the turn folds out his air here, and leaves just a super strong narrow range that we are behind all of, we call if villan can bluff and we want him to bluff again on the river, so we call.
Definitely think that 9 makes villans hand here, no way he leads a draw into us, we raised pre-flop and bet the flop, villan will be looking for as cheap a card as he can get on the turn.
When Im playing I think I probably call turn and then check river, but now I really think folding this turn is the play.

Raising turn is spewy.

As played I check back river.

If we call turn instead of raising it, i'm for betting this river if he checks.

Interested in results, OP.

^This. I think the poster below also said that hero might be trying to bluff a cheaper river, however I just dont see that to be true. What do we do if he ships? Pretty much all his value hands (straights, sets, 2pr) are going to shove over us. additionally, some pairs plus draws like 9Thh can shove over us putting us in a bad spot.

pre-flop: fine

flop: good, i might make it a bit bigger because of how connected the board is but def not a huge issue

turn: call. raising doesnt accomplish all that much and can put us in really bad spots. Also raising doesnt really define his range because a hand like QT, 67, J8, J9 etc. may elect to flat along with all draws because of the price. You also have position going into the river. Just flat.

river: Rivers a check. If we bet we arent folding out better (straights still call) and we dont get value from worse (98 and missed draws are folding). Everything got there, while our absolute hand strength is great we have poor relative hand strength to the board. check it behind.

I think there are enough hands that get made with this turn 9 to make the remaining draw not a "large" part of the range. Like others, I prefer a check back here.

If I flat the turn and the river bricks, am I trying to call his 300 bet that's likely coming? ... at least should be coming .. my logic is that my raise buys my agressor status back and if he re pops its obv a snap fold . If we are behind his two pair he will likely flat my turn raise imo and then I get to check back river. I'm not planning on betting basically any rivers . My turn raise is essentially what I would wanna call on blank rivers . I'm also assuming he won't flat turn and donk river again although if he does that on an obvious draw completing again I think it's a super easy fold then and I still don't kind the turn raise cuz it still charged his draw then .


Arguments for turn fold are interesting i agree. In spots like this it basically comes down to instinct against an unknown. In this specific spot I did not feel like I was behind on the turn and if I'm still ahead I want money in the pot. If he folds worse hand i am still very happy

I'll post the results tomorrow but I think there is some discussion that can be done , particularly waiting for replies for my last post

I have a hard time seeing this dude peel an 80$ cbet with 98 or 99 that's the thing . So he either hit a straight or has J9 or has a combo draw. If he hit nut straight I couldnt imagine him leafing into me . I actually the the 9 was a pretty decent card. Better than a 10 or a Q

If he has me crushed aND repops it I get to fold . If he has J9 or something and flats then I likely get to check back a river .

If he has a draw that he is willing to shove with , good hand sir

Flat turn what do I do on blank river ??? Fold? I'd rather raise turn and fold to a shove . At least we know we are crushed and got away cheaper imo.

If he shoves combo draw nice hand sir.


If he flats better on turn , and we are following my logic on the hand , isn't raising here good then ??? Cuz we will get to check all rivers ?

Raising the turn is fine if villain isn't creative enough to bomb semi-bluff. Most of villain's range is now combo draws, QJ/JT/Th9h etc. A lot of low stakes villains will just flat and raising gets more value from these hands. A turn shove is usually sets+ and TPTK isn't fairing well.

If you flat the turn, you're calling blank rivers. You might have to fold to big bets on river hearts, 7, T, and Q.

Nice Hand, Sir.

Why is this? Your read on him is that he's definitely a rec and pretty fishy. I would expect a fishy player to flat a c-bet with second pair. Not sure it's even a mistake on a J-high board, as a lot of your raising range misses this board (i.e. AK, AQ, AT, KQ, etc.).

Raising the turn is good if you think you have the best hand and want to get value from worse and protect your equity from draws. I think you played the hand well.

Raising vs 2pair and checking back river isn't a good result for us. Think in terms of money, you've put in 385 vs a stronger hand when you could have folded or called and then folded river and put in less.
I don't agree when you think villain is trying to buy a cheap river by donking 160. This is a large bet for fishy recs, and double that of the flop bet, if he was trying to buy a cheap river why would he bet so much?
Usually turn donk leads for this size are going to be because they don't want you to check back the turn and/or are scared of draws getting there (flush and Tx open ender are a big worry). They will tend to have hands they find strong so at minimum 2pair+ AJ, overpairs, straights, sets. I find it rarely will it be combo draws for turn leads.

If we are raising turn and opponent does have a strong combo draw then they can call profitably vs our raise anyway. But likely the case is that our raise is not profitable vs their range of 2p+ and maybe some strong combos like JThh etc. So we just end up burning money vs the stronger part of their range whilst allowing draws to continue fine but folding out KJ/JQ if they can even have those hands.

Rec fish don't usually fold top pair good kicker and if villain is drawing a raise is the right way to play the turn. Charge him more to draw while we have the most equity.

EV unlikely improves raising turn over calling turn. His range should be awfully strong on this turn, particularly for a fishy guy taking this line, and he's likely betting no worse than QQ with any regular frequency (he prob had QQ) with a few semibluffs mixed in below that on rare occasions.

You can comfortably call turn and decide riv with a wealth of information at your fingertips. On this turn, your prime directive should be to get to showdown asap, not reopen action/take potential -EV lines/overplay middle range hands.

This is a spot that keeps coming up for me and it's very frustrating.


RESULTS

Villian sheepishly turns over Kh8h and scoops the pot with a rivered flush

This looks a lot like JT for pair+ SD, or T9 for pair+SD or a bad bluff with a flush draw. his value range is J9, or a misplayed 88/55 that started to be concerned with 4 to a straight rivering him. he couldve called with 99, less likely 98 (even though 98 is a better hand, people get married to their pocket pair. I think raising and calling effectively lead to the same result on made hands that beta you. If he had you beat he wouldve 3 bet turn, if you called turn you wouldve had to call basiclaly any river.

By raising turn you charged the draws, so well played. I wouldve called until i thought it out fully.