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Old 05-21-2018, 05:15 PM   #1
BlueSpade84
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2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Here is an interesting hand that I had this weekend.

Hero - 30's WG, ball cap, playing TAG in a 2/5 game I'm new at, so no history with players. Hero covers.

Villain 1: MAWG, just sat at table about 30 mins ago. Seems loose passive, limping about half of his hands and folding about half of them to pre flop raises. Stack $450

Villain 2: ABC - straightforward villain. Likes to show the goods, and in the last 6 hours only shows up with the goods if aggressive. Stack $1200

Villain 3: Severely tilted MAWG. Is obviously on tilt and playing Sheriff on all hands he is in. Is almost done punting a $3k stack. Stack $800

OTTH

UTG - V2 limps
MP - limps
MP +1 - V3 limps
BTN - limps
SB - V1 raises to 30
Hero in BB calls with A J

UTG calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls, BTN folds.

Pot $150
Flop: J 7 4

V1 in SB leads for $80.
Hero Calls.
V2 calls
MP+1 folds
V3 (BTN) calls

Pot: $470
J 7 4 5

V1 is SB leads for $100.
Hero calls
V2 calls
V3 calls

Pot: $870
J 7 4 5 5

V1 leads for $80
Hero?

Here is my thought process. Pre flop I considered a 3! as there was a decent amount in the pot already and my relative position was likely to be poor. However, since my hand plays well multi-way and by calling i'm likely to start the cascade of calls, I chose to flat.

Flop is too good for my hand to fold, but given 3 players still to act on a dry board, I don't see any hand I beat continuing to a raise. V1's sizing was small, inclining me to discount somewhat the overpairs, and range him on 88-10,10, Jx, AQ+. I was quite surprised to see two more calls.

Turn bet is really weak sizing, but betting into 3 callers OTT screams strength, so really mixed signals here. V2 and V3 could have a very wide range given the small bets.

Obviously, I'm never folding to this size. Anyone think that its a raise? Thoughts on the rest of the hand welcome of course as well.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:39 PM   #2
HomelessPizza
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Pre - flat is good. Hand plays well mutliway and V is passive and his raising range is strong

Super weird action with so many callers thru all streets, but turn sizing made is such a good price for v3 to call with almost entire range.

AP, OTR probably just call but you likely face a raise behind from 56, 86, 85, etc and have to let it go.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:06 AM   #3
Stupidbanana
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

I raise turn, we are seriously under repped here. as played I probably call/fold to a large raise.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:45 AM   #4
Gettingood
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Raise river to ~260. I dont see villain1 ever not betting all in with a hand that we lose to and I dont see how can he fold so I’d raise just over the amount that puts him all in. This way I can bet/fold vs other villains. They are never 3betting river with worse here. Or most probably anywhere since this is livepoker and 3betbluffs otr are like bigfoot; people claim they have seen it but I have yet to witness it myself.

Hero could raise turn too but its the action after hero calls the turn that defines villains ranges. (Just calling the turn and eff minbetting otr) that being said raising turn can’t be too bad vs that sizing as I’m tempted to bluff here some too.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:53 AM   #5
BlueSpade84
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

What sizing would you use on a turn raise? Turn raise against an undefined range with 2 villains behind certainly screams strength, are you ever expecting worse to call, or are you just denying equity?
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:20 AM   #6
Gettingood
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

I think almost minraising 1.1-1.2x could be enough to make other villains fold their equity or define their ranges pretty well. We can also still fold turn even with the odds we are getting if OR 3bets turn since we are going to be crushed alot when villain b/3b esp w/ this sizing. (and you know what they say about 3bets...) That also often gives us a chance for a check behind otr if we so choose.

Still, I think raising river is safer but getting raised ott after flatting sucks donkeyballs so depending on the level and aggressiveness of the villains, I’d mix between the two. There is also something to be said about keeping this spesific tilting villain in the hand or even possibly bluffcatching him if he shoves. AJdd is a good bluffcatching candidate for it doesn’t block any bluffs and as said, hero is under repped after just calling ott.

This is my longwinded answer in saying either is fine but I’d raise river more often in this specific spot.

Edit: draws will often call the minraise while better comes over the top. And sometimes (not very likely) Worse Jx finds a call.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:53 AM   #7
BlueSpade84
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Thanks for response.

Results -
Pot: $870
J 7 4 5 5

V1 leads for $80
Hero calls $80
V2 folds
V3 folds

V1 tables 10,10 and Hero scoops.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:19 PM   #8
Joey913
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Good flat on river. Not sure what hands you beat that would call a river raise. His line could be a MUBSy overpair given all the callers.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:09 PM   #9
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

I would have 3! pre personally. Yes your hand plays well multi-way, but your relative position is the worst it can be and you will have a very hard time realizing your equity from the BB unless someone has the second nut flush (which will happen like 0.5% of the time).

I am fine with the flat on the flop here, but I raise the turn for sure to that sizing. Turn brings a lot of flop callers a pair + SD so I want them to pay to potentially get there. I would make it like $290-$310 total.

River AP, I like the flat. Raising seems like spew as it will only get called by better and also potentially get someone with a hand like 87 or 67 behind you to fold.
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:50 PM   #10
PokerPrince
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

I must be a huge nit, because I would seriously considering folding to the flop c-bet. A guy we perceive to be loose/passive raising from the blinds vs multiple limpers and then firing into all of the limpers on J74r ... this does not smell of AK or AQ too often, but rather QQ+.

Very surprised at his actual hand(nice scoop btw), and even more surprised at those advocating a pf 3-bet and even a turn raise???
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Old 05-22-2018, 02:55 PM   #11
shorn7
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPrince View Post
I must be a huge nit, because I would seriously considering folding to the flop c-bet. A guy we perceive to be loose/passive raising from the blinds vs multiple limpers and then firing into all of the limpers on J74r ... this does not smell of AK or AQ too often, but rather QQ+.

Very surprised at his actual hand(nice scoop btw), and even more surprised at those advocating a pf 3-bet and even a turn raise???
1. PF 3! because we can scoop dead $ and be IP in a 3 bet pot with a top 10% hand if called.

2. Turn raise because V's sizing is weenie ($100 into $470) which is not indicative of a big hand like an overpair. At this level, V's with OP's want to protect their hand versus a bad beat and so bet much more on this turn. His bet screams "OK 1 pair hand" like TT/99 or QJ maybe (but we block so...).
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:37 PM   #12
Gettingood
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

You are absolutely over 50% (close to 100% tbh)vs sb range otr and I think he calls pretty much always since he is so short and the pot is so big. It’s not unheard of for either villains to call behind with Jx, esp the tilting guy. Even if they never call worse, all the villains are capped badly otr and just getting sb to call has roughly the same value than river getting called by everybody.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:52 PM   #13
BlueSpade84
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

I'm not sure that villains behind are actually capped that badly on the river. Hands like 56 which certainly would be calling just got ahead, and in fact its quite possible that there are other combo's of 5x as well in their limp calling range.

This thinking certainly put a river raise out of my head completely in the moment. I do think that a raise/fold on the turn has merit in order to deny the equity to Villains 2 & 3. For me this hand highlighted the difficulty of a 1-pair hand multi-way. Often too good to fold, but easy to value own one's self when OOP.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:45 PM   #14
Gettingood
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Re: 2/5 TPTK Multi-way

If both villains are limping 65o Then they have 12 combos but tight ABC player isn’t limping that from utg imo. The tilting player can easily have 65o but he also has a lot of other stuff that we are beating that might call. Namely Jx that calls rarely but that isn’t an issue since he is folding so very often and 5x=Jx that he calls with as far as frequencies go. This is debatable though, just my opinion that I’m basing on him being tilted and other player being tight.
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