Yes smokingrobot but by check we allow V to play perfect against us because he can also check back hands we are beating but have decent equity.

The point in this specific hand shove like I advised earlier was best play even though V ended up winning


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We don't just have top pair here / we have TPTK + gutshot. We have plenty of worse aces which we can check call, and some more nut hands we can check/raise, plus some high equity draws and pair+draw hands we can check/raise.

I think our hand is too good to check because we're afraid of being beat, in that it is ahead of a lot of villains range that gets to the turn, unless villain folds flop a lot - and he doesn't. And it is too vulnerable to check to slowplay, because it isn't strong enough to check/raise and villain has a lot of good equity hands he can check back on the turn.

I think AV meant repping ax+ not literally always has it

I understand what you're saying, and I was one of the people that said to fold. The biggest game that runs in my local card rooms is 3/5 so I don't have any experience with people dropping down. So while it's easy to understand what someone means when they describe a passive fish, I don't really know what a LAG reg that plays as high as 10/25 means or if you can even really stereotype them. So just as a standard line folding seems better unless you have reason to believe that the other player is a manic or is somehow capable of doing this folding seems pretty clear even though it doesn't make sense. I see people play hands passively pre flop or on the flop far more than suddenly getting mindlessly aggressive.

With regard to IO, because there are so many actual draws on this board you always have IO in effect because there are obvious bluff cards. This isn't a situation where the hero can just c/f when a draw hits the river or where the V should have no river bluff range. You can realize the equity of the draw both from calls when you hit or bluffs when you miss, if hero over/under calls on the river respectively. I'm not sure I'm articulating this well but if the V's equity in the hand is FE+IO. I'm saying the V should have more FE on the river than the turn so the sum is larger by calling. So even if V wants to play power poker, I just think this is a terrible hand/situation to do it.

I think all turn decisions are very close either way. That's why there are so many conflicting arguments.

I am betting 100% of my range here. What from heros range should he be betting flop checking turn?

I mean, I make moves like this one all the time, and im new to the stakes, not a 10/25 player. Strong players make strong fearless plays, and this was exactly that. I put him exactly on the type of hand he has because i recognize the move, and this move absolutely crushes the "standard line". Playing standard poker makes you a standard player and while standard lines are great aginst weak players, they are often exploited by strong players.

I understand what youre saying in the second paragraph, basically if he calls turn he can rep a club on the river. Thats true, but ill also note that if a river bluff is EV+, a turn bluff likely is going to get you the same FE. Im not saying that Vs turn raise was the best possible move to do every time, im saying that a typical V only calls, and raising is not a dumb move by any means and is dependent upon your opponent. I personally probably wouldve called because of my FD being concealed because its a BDFD, but if i had the front door id probably be considering a turn raise. Good post.

Agreed.