History: villain is competent fairly straight forward player that plays abc that rarely gets out of hand but can occasionally semi bluff at opportune times. We have played many times together and is a home game atmosphere with tons if history. Hero is pretty well known as very tight straightforward player but villain knows I can steal and float flops at times in position.

Hand: 6 handed

Villain ( 175ish) opens for 15 in utg +1
Hero ( 220ish) calls in hijack with AJos everyone else folds

Flop is Ac 4c J
Villain bets 25 hero calls

Turn is Ks
Villain checks, hero bets 45 , villain check raise all-in for remaining approx 135

Sooooo......sigh.

Call. Raise flop next time, probably just jamming flop with these stack sizes.

Fold preflop.

Raise the flop.

/thread

+1

You are allowed to do this, but I don't think it's the best play.

Thought it was 9 handed, my bad.

In my games, a 4x raise is standard and a 3x raise is almost always weakness. I like a min thin value 3-bet here. Fold if he shoves.

Focus man, focus. We're playing with like 30BB effective. Maybe min-re-click-back with a 4-bet, then fold to a 5 bet, unless a small 6 bet could get the job done, but obviously fold to a 7-bet, it's always the nuts, I read that in a book.

Seriously now, I'd fold pre. You could 3-bet pre and not fold. Calling is so meh.

As played, I don't know, you're getting almost 3:1. It's probably a fold because like, what's the best value hand he could possibly have that still you beat - A4? AQ? Well that doesn't make any sense, does it. This is probably a value c/r, and it's like always beating you. It's probably not really a tough spot and is probably a clear fold, but you do have two pears with 30BB effective starting stacks. So flip a coin.

But yeah, hey, there's a good trick for you. Go through the thought process. This should be either a value shove or a bluff shove (unless he's clicking buttons).

OK. If this is a value shove, then what do I beat? Well, what's the best possible value hand (not necessarily in his range, but just in the world) that I still beat - like we said, it's A4 and then AQ. That really doesn't make a ton of sense given action, and that's not a lot of hands anyway. OK. So if this is a value raise, he's probably beating you, and there are plenty of hands that beat you. OK, what about bluffs... some are possible, but not a ton of hands. Maybe like KcQc could make sense, something that turned a combo draw. But not much. And a turn c/r is very valuish as an action, as well. So you should fold.

What's wrong with the play? Seems more profitable than doing something "standard". His raise size looks weak, he flats with 100% of his range to the 3-bet, and if he has a premium he shoves with a range that crushes us and fold because we aren't getting odds to call.

A lot is wrong. But primarily, 3-bet/folding ~30% of your stack is quite bad.

What you can't 3 bet?

PF - Re pop $40.

Not that it really makes a difference, but at a 6 handed table utg+1 and hj is same seat, so I'm assuming you were in the cutoff.

Pre-flop, I don't like a 3-bet here. With these stack sizes, villain is looking to get all-in a lot and we end up folding when he's got, for example, 55-TT when we had decent equity and position against those hands. 3B makes more sense to me from the blinds when we're out of position and likely facing a continuation bet when we've missed the flop 70% of the time. Anyway, I think call is best option with folding also a possibility if villain is tight.

Flop, you should raise here, esp with these stack sizes. If he's got something, you're going to get it all in, and if he doesn't you're probably not going to win another bet from him.

As played, I don't see how you can find a fold. You're getting 3:1 on the call, and even if you assign villain a really strong range (see below) you've got 40% equity.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

12,584 games 0.000 secs 2,516,800 games/sec

Board: Ac Jh 4c Kd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.695% 36.01% 04.68% 4532 589.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 59.305% 54.62% 04.68% 6874 589.00 { KK+, JJ, ATo+, A4o, QTo }

What does 3B accomplish? You fold out worse hands (unless you think villain is in the habit of calling a 3B oop with AT or worse), and the hands that crush you call or move all-in. How is that good for us? We have position in this hand, if we want to play the hand, we should use it.

Another possibility is to check behind villain on turn for pot control, you have a solid hand but vulnerable and you're also in position. You also have a good shown down hand if you can keep the pot smallish until the river.

You 3 bet to apply pressure and to show him you're not to be trifled with and to narrow villains range.

AJ is a strong enough hand to play back villain and if he shoves you fold...net - $40.

You 3 bet, villain folds you win $15. A win is a win.

3betting pre is the worst option by far. Based on description and villains short stack and his UTG+1 position it is very likely he is only raisin premium hands here. Sure we can get AQ and TT to fold but we burn money trying to bluff AK, JJ+ which makes up a bigger portion of his range

Fold pre. I'd even fold AQs pre here, you have little room to play post flop and are dominated a lot and have little fold equity. As played flop is fine and optimal, we don't want villain to bet fold AK or AQ here. Turn is the worst card in the deck but he could have AQ here. I don't like it but I'm stacking off as played only because stacks are so shallow and were getting a great price

You have 35% against AA, JJ, KK, AK, AQ. Raise flop only if villain can't bet fold AK, AQ here. There are very few if any FDs in his range

Yes, agreed on what you said. I'm merely trying see if there's another angle here.

If we analyze all possibilities PF, 3 betting can be effective but I guess this villain is not likely to raise PF unless he has AJ beat.

Thank you all for your input and I'm glad to see with all of the choices I've heard that it was not a standard line, I realized I was getting excellent odds and yeah the stack sizes were crazy small but I opted to fold the turn, a lead on the flop followed by a check raise on the turn when the worst card ever came just screams strength and would be such a wonky line for a bluff. Me thinks AK or KK all day but either way thank you all for your insight and advice. Much appreciate.

Your math is quite off. It's 17% of the effective stack. And lol at saying something is wrong with no explanation.

Say you 3-bet.

OK, you're talking about a min raise. Call it 20% of stacks then. At the table, that's the best way to do the math quickly. So 20%. Or 1/5.

Villain shoves. Here's more table math. He's shoving 5/5. You already put in 1/5. You have 4/5 left in your stack. So do it all in fifths. That's 6/5 in the pot and 4/5 left in your stack. So you're getting 6:4. Or 3:2. Or 1.5:1. That means you need 40% required equity (guesstimate 42% to adjust for our rounding). OK. I don't need to see any equities or ranges here, I know this is not an ideal situation.

Villain calls. Now you're at the flop with 135 left and a pot of 60. You created an SPR of 2. You might not even have the best hand. If you miss, you have to c-bet/give up or just fold if villain donks. You're pretty much playing fit or fold with a very marginal hand for 50% of stacks.

If you need to play the hand, then go ahead and call pre. But 3-betting makes zero sense unless you can profitably stack off pre-flop.

Ideally, and by far the best decision, fold pre. Nothing good will come of this hand, it's just going to lead to the most marginal of situations.

Thanks for taking the time to reply with an explanation.

First of all, the HH is redic confusing. UTG+1 6 handed would be villain opening from the HJ so hero can't be on the HJ. I'm going to assume hero is OTB for simplicity's sake.

The flip side of this argument is that if we just flat and we both miss the flop villain wins with a c-bet, not us. On the other hand, if we take away initiative and c-bet when we both miss, we're the one that's going to win the hand. And, if we flop TP we can just bet/call knowing we're good most of the time as he'll be shoving JJ+, AK on us when he's this shallow. Lastly, another benefit is that a min 3-bet discourages the blinds from getting involved so we have more of a chance to win the pot and we can stack off with TP more confidently.

I read things like this pretty frequently. If we are so concerned about Villain bluffing us off whiffed AJ with a worse hand, why not just call the c-bet? We have position.

Well the main reason for the min 3-bet is for value against his perceived range. But, it does have the added benefit of winning the pot more often when we both miss. And if we get called we can check the turn if we don't hit and see a river for free. Also, $15 is a small raise and most of the time one of the blinds will come along, forcing us to play fit or fold with our relative position.

So based on this logic I'm gathering that there are zero hands that you would call preflop and flop with?