2/5 NLHE

V - Young Asian guy. We played 1/3 together before 2/5 opened, and he played TAG-abc, value oriented poker. Knows to pot control, seemed pretty solid overall. Definitely one of the better players in the game. When we moved to 2/5 he seemed to tighten up even more preflop. ~650

Hero - Young white guy. Most likely viewed as TAG/solid and has been pretty card dead so maybe even viewed as nitty. Covers

One limp, V raises 25 from the HJ, Hero calls with AK OTB, SB calls, limper folds.

(80) AT8
SB checks, V bets 65, hero calls, SB folds

I don't like how wet the board is but villain almost always has an A when he bets this board and if not he has a big draw that could 3b me if I raise, so I decide to call thinking that his Ax that I'm beating very possibly just fold and everything that beats me plus big draws 3b. If SB calls I'm confident I can proceed correctly vs his range OTT.

(210) Q
V leads 150, hero?

Just as a quick note to help with ranging: V would definitely check to pot control with AJ here.

I fold.

Having said that, Ive asked this question here before and never got an answer. How often does a good player double barrel a flop like this just because there's a flush draw and hes hoping you will lay down the FD? Sometimes I want to flat call the flop with a set if theres a FD thinking he will fire again with nothing because of the FD, where if I raised he would just fold if he had nothing. I have no idea if that works or not because I cant figure out how often people double barrel just due to the FD.

Fold.

Hands he realistically has at this point based upon FULL DESCRIPTION:


AK - Chop

AJ, A9s, KQ, - Winning If he has KQs, not good, hair spot on some rivers. Plus throw in random Axs for more hairyness, if you want.

AQ, AT, KJ, AA, TT, 88 - Losing

Rivers will be very very difficult on many different cards, both draw hit and even-more so non-draw hit if he decided to fire the third bullet.


The most important note here is he pot-controls, doubt he double-barrels with worse than two-pair or better. Then combine that with 'value-oriented game'.



I might take a lot of flak for this but based on your villian description and history, I probably like a 3! here more than not PF. If he 4! I fold and am very happy, if not, I'm able to do this with TT+ and AK for good value in future, and if he respects 3!s I can open up in more isolated spots and 3! SC and really get payed on my value 3!s. You have position and a great hand, I wanna isolate and build the pot, and more than ever have his hand face-up for both PF and Post-flop evaluation. I do this all comfortably because I have position. Another way to look at all this is: I have position, "I wanna F with him, because I by default with position do, I don't even have to do anything", 3!ing him and being relentlessly choicely-aggressive when I have position, you just can't get carried away, AKo is good hand to do it where you're not getting carried away.
I know people will say it's because you have position you wanna just call behind, and there is merit to that argument, but at the end of the day I have AKo and position, my hand beats his range, let's build the pot and isolate why more than anything I can start ranging him by my betting. I also take last-aggression which is important if he checks and I wanna pot control flop, and maybe even turn.



I like easy decisions, and think they're the most +EV in the game besides table selection, so to me 3!ing this against this villian will make PF and Post-Flop decisions a lot easier. If I realize in the future he doesn't really 4! with AA, KK, maybe QQ then I need to adjust to that.

Never just call with AK preflop. Either 3bet or get out. When you call preflop you are looking to flop something and that is capital wrong. AK cannot be played fit/fold. Only weak players call pre with AK because they are afraid to be without a hand on the flop where they will miss 66% of the time. They also not aware that by the river AK will make TP 50% of the time and if they would have played AK very aggressive preflop they would get the FE on top. But obviously they don't know how to play AK well.

Only Stalin knows how to win big wars against all odds.

Never!!!!

Because good player is double barreling turn because he wants to get value from flush draw.

lol nope

This is blanket statement. And obviously realley bad, and wrong.

Let me rephrase. How often does a good player double barrel with something like 99 or JJ on this board......or AK on a Q964 type board....solely because he thinks he has the best hand if all you have is the FD....when he would otherwise check/fold if there wasnt a flush draw?

If good players tend to fire again more often with 99/JJ/KQ on this turn due to the flush draw being in hero's range, then you cant fold AK here.

This is even worse sentence. AK is very easily played profitably, playing fit/fold.

Vs aggro players, playing AK fit/fold can be amazingly +EV

Rarely,

If good player has AK, in your range here. Then he has you pegged as passive player.

Passive player is going to have fairly standard calling range on this flop, but his turn betting range will be fairly tight. Probably doesn't include to many flush draws.

So decent player is check/folding his under pairs here always. Hoping the passive player checks back.

AK is an excellent hand to bluff with as absent FD and SDs, it has very high equity. People act like AK is a special beast among NLHE hands, like it's way different than AJ. When these hands miss they're pretty damn similar. Lose the ego and mysticism related to AK. Flat call with it sometimes and c/f the flop as you might with KQs or AQo. It's just another hand. Best part of it is, your opponents don't know you're doing it! Don't let the molasses pace of lolivepoker trick you into thinking AK is anything too special, it's just a hand that makes one pair.

Edit: I was trying to talk to the thread, not specifically to mikko, who I'm sure is a far sight better than me at poker.

Guess, I don't understand what your saying?

Are you suggesting to turn AK into bluff post-op here?

Or are you advocating 3bet?

F.y.i,

I am 3 betting 100% vs this villain here. My quoted text was just picking apart a flawed statement.

Yeah sorry, I was just trying to complim about how some players (not you) may see AK.

I am always on the look out for opportunities where I can make a better hand fold and a worse hand call. I don't think it can be done by V in this hand, but a common example would be something like, raise PF with 99, get one caller. Flop AJ6 with a flush draw. You can cbet here and barrel anything but a flush card, Jack or Ten. broadway jack hands will fold and flush draws may call. A perfect situation. I don't do this every time, or even most times this spot comes up, but it's something to be on the lookout for.

I like how you played the hand.That makes it an easy fold then doesnt it? Only bluff is KQss. Then he has AA,TT,88,QQ,ATs,AQs,AQo.. seems like an snap fold

lol ..., oh! Yes
AK going to the river will flop TPTK 50% of the time. Yes and very much Yes!
That's why AK vs. QQ ,, JJ, TT,... etc pp is a race when AK goes all-in preflop. If we get called every time we will break even. But the thing is that we will NOT be called 100% and from there comes our profit. The rest of two cards combos we crush and get in trouble only against AA and KK but even there we got blockers so less time opponents have AA/KK when we got AK.

If anybody advocates a call with AK preflop, see the flop first and reevaluate, that person is not an educated player. He's actually a big fish that will give us his money when we both have AK and both of us miss flop and he folds. We make tons of chips against such a wannabe player.

So, obviously AK should be played very aggressive preflop.

Lol

AKo is not 50% vs TT-QQ. Calling preflop with AK is fine. This is not a spot for it imo, as villain is in fairly late position and isn't the type to go crazy bluffing us post (where AK excels, as you either have top pair or you have two overcards that when they hit villain will keep bluffing AND value own themselves when they actually did connect OTT), so lets just 3bet and take down the pot a good % of the time. I'd make it $75 pre, fold to a jam without history, expect to get called by AQo+, 99-QQ, AJs, KQs, jammed on by KK+/maybe AK, and fold the rest of his range.

'Never' and 'always' are rarely the right words to use when discussing poker strategy and your quoted statement is a particularly grotesque generalisation. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.

Flatting OTB with AK here is fine but raising is not a bad idea either. As played, this is a fold on the turn.

If you're not 3betting AK otb vs HJ open what are you 3betting? If you're flatting your entire range it's fine to flat AK here but you're missing out on lots of value in the long run. If you're only 3betting stronger then you allow villain to play correctly vs you and make exploitable folds given your tight 3b range. As played I like your post flop line and turn is a disciplined but correct fold given V's description as, judging by info provided, he's unlikely to double barrel bluff and would pot control worse Ax and other one pair hands you are beating.

Stalin never felt bad about killing millions of people. Do you think he feels bad about generalizing?

also, always raising AK on the button over a HJ open would be better than whatever it is you're advocating.

There are so many more factors than what you are pointing out. IP vs aggro monkeys it is profitale to call as they will barrel a and k high boards

3betting is fine as well.

It is good to balance yoiur range as well.

Also vs players who always fold to 3 bets its a great way to extract more value, esp if theyre weak postflop and you can float them as well

in fact flatting aa and kk to these players is fine as well, preferably IP and HU

also at squeeze happy tables its fine to flat to backraise

but i admit always 3betting ak isnt too bad of a strategy

I'm merely stating the fact that unconditionally raising or folding AK is flat out wrong and that calling can be the correct move because circumstances are a thing. I made no comment on what the correct move in this particular HH is but FWIW, I'd 3bet here.

And no, always raising AK on the BTN vs. a HJ open is definitely not better than what I'm advocating, which is to be a thinking player and not an auto-bet/fold monkey.

This is a 3bet for me every time. I like 3betting a decent number of hands OTB vs a likely wide HJ opening range. I want to 3bet for value: AA-TT, AK and sometimes AQs at the minimum. AKo has so much equity against an open / flat range (think hands like: 88-JJ, AQ, AJ, ATs, KQs) and we'll be able to get value out of worse aces postflop. We can raise / fold if we think HJ is only 4betting AA-QQ, or happily GII if he 4bets wider.

HJ folding ain't a bad result either!

IMO flatting and allowing villain to barrel with AQ or AJ is serious FPS.