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Old 04-15-2018, 03:12 AM   #1
twisting
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2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

500max.

Pre-flop
Hero raises to 25 with J2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ J2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ in +1 after utg limps and 4more callers.

Hero's been playing super aggressive bc made sth 2times in a row in a decent pot before this hand. But, didn't go to show-down so, they didn't know what hero had. 1300$

VI is a rec-player who hardly gives up a draw, even c/r with OESD. I saw it last session 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ .
He knows how to put VI in pressure.
Never seen any huge-bluff yet.

Flop 102/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 82/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 22/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 125.
Hero bets 65, Co raises to 165, hero calls.

Turn 42/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 455

Hero checks, Co bets 200(250behind). Hero folds.

It was over than 5minutes that hero ended up to fold. Really hated folding in that spot against the VI but, decided folding as hero blocked his draw range. Could be 7h9h tho2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ , hero thought he would check on the turn if he was on any draw.

I was trying to find any live telling from him..
He said "let's see a river." and then he started watching TV sarcastically after the bet on the turn and mucked with a sigh of shame lol.

What would you guys think he had? Need opnions.. 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:16 AM   #2
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

I’d just meh fold flop. We block a lot of draws, and his raising range vs 5 players and PFR cbettor should be generally super nutted (big combo draws/sets/2 pair).

I wouldnt bet flop though with Jh. I’d check and evaluate, seeing a turn. Black jacks it’s fine to bet/f
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:24 AM   #3
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by twisting View Post
500max.

Pre-flop
Hero raises to 25 with J2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ J2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ in +1 after utg limps and 4more callers.

Hero's been playing super aggressive bc made sth 2times in a row in a decent pot before this hand. But, didn't go to show-down so, they didn't know what hero had. 1300$

VI is a rec-player who hardly gives up a draw, even c/r with OESD. I saw it last session 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ .
He knows how to put VI in pressure.
Never seen any huge-bluff yet.

Flop 102/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 82/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 22/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 125.
Hero bets 65, Co raises to 165, hero calls.

Turn 42/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 455

Hero checks, Co bets 200(250behind). Hero folds.

It was over than 5minutes that hero ended up to fold. Really hated folding in that spot against the VI but, decided folding as hero blocked his draw range. Could be 7h9h tho2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ , hero thought he would check on the turn if he was on any draw.

I was trying to find any live telling from him..
He said "let's see a river." and then he started watching TV sarcastically after the bet on the turn and mucked with a sigh of shame lol.

What would you guys think he had? Need opnions.. 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ
I would prefer a bet/fold line OTT. He could be raising the flop with a draw (or even AT) then just betting the turn because you checked. What I do will depend a lot on how aggressive and skilled this villain is. His sizing seems small if he has a big hand like a set. I would expect him to be nervous about the flush and just shove because it's not even a PSB.

His actions are kind of confusing. Why say "let's see a river" after betting 200? Watching TV is probably weakness unless he's really into whatever's on TV. More likely he sucks at bluffing and is feigning relaxation. The sigh after you fold also seems like nonsense. He's sighing intentionally to indicate he had a great hand, but he doesn't turn it up? His behavior in total smells like BS. I'm guessing he had a draw here and your Jacks were good.

Last edited by Shai Hulud; 04-15-2018 at 03:29 AM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:30 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Id just meh fold flop. We block a lot of draws, and his raising range vs 5 players and PFR cbettor should be generally super nutted (big combo draws/sets/2 pair).

I wouldnt bet flop though with Jh. Id check and evaluate, seeing a turn. Black jacks its fine to bet/f
Yeah. It seemed too strong but, I disagree with not betting on the turn. I think we have to bet to protect our hands. And there are so many hands to get a value from. I would usually bet in this spot.
And it's too weak to check on a flop.

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Old 04-15-2018, 03:59 AM   #5
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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His sizing seems small if he has a big hand like a set. I would expect him to be nervous about the flush and just shove because it's not even a PSB.

His actions are kind of confusing. Why say "let's see a river" after betting 200? Watching TV is probably weakness unless he's really into whatever's on TV. More likely he sucks at bluffing and is feigning relaxation. The sigh after you fold also seems like nonsense. He's sighing intentionally to indicate he had a great hand, but he doesn't turn it up? His behavior in total smells like BS. I'm guessing he had a draw here and your Jacks were good.
Yeah, I also think his bet-size on the turn isn't good tho, If I'd called on the turn, I'd have had to call on a river. that's why I folded on the turn
I would usually fold or shove on a turn in this spot bc he's just 250 behind.

He'd been watching TV until we got this hand.. I couldn't get any read on him but, just looked like comfortable.. tricky tricky. this hand happened 2days ago tho, I'm still confused lol
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:26 AM   #6
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

First things first, if you flat the flop, there's going to be 455 in the pot and 450 behind, the pot is just getting too big to be trying to "play poker" from out of position. Either jam or fold on the flop.

Typically you want to be folding in this spot, with a player raising you with 5 people in the hand. I guess ask yourself: would this player raise a 10 in this spot, or would he raise ALL his draws (meaning every open ender and every flush draw on this board). Unless you can clearly answer "yes" to one of those questions, fold.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:13 AM   #7
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

Check/evaluate the flop 5-way.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:24 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
First things first, if you flat the flop, there's going to be 455 in the pot and 450 behind, the pot is just getting too big to be trying to "play poker" from out of position. Either jam or fold on the flop.
My rule of thumb is that if I'm not willing to call a 2/3 PSB on the turn on a blank, I won't call a flop raise. A huge leak people have is that they'll call a raise on the flop, but will fold on the turn. Depending on the villain, calling can make sense if you know they are willing to put another bet in with the draw. However, much of the time ChrisV has the right plan.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:17 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Yeah. It seemed too strong but, I disagree with not betting on the turn. I think we have to bet to protect our hands. And there are so many hands to get a value from. I would usually bet in this spot.
And it's too weak to check on a flop.

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I meant .. not betting on the flop. Sorry mb

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Old 04-15-2018, 04:46 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

Curious what other 2+2ers think, what if we x/r or x/c flop instead of C-betting? Then evaluate turn + river. Still tricky OOP.

By C-betting we put ourselves at the whim of Villain's flop raise range which might be balance with draws and nutted hands...
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:54 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

Just shove the flop if you're going to continue the hand. What is V's position? Is he the type to flat with QQ+ if he's next to act after the raise without any dead money in between?

Was your plan to c/f a brick turn? If so, then why even call the flop? You're just hoping that he checks it down it seems. I think you need to decide on the flop if you're going to get it in or not.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:14 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Id just meh fold flop. We block a lot of draws, and his raising range vs 5 players and PFR cbettor should be generally super nutted (big combo draws/sets/2 pair).

I wouldnt bet flop though with Jh. Id check and evaluate, seeing a turn. Black jacks its fine to bet/f
minatorr, i really respect your analysis in many spots.

you seem quite advanced in your thinking RE: blockers and how that affects our decisions. could you explain why you would bet black jacks but not red jacks?
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:21 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
First things first, if you flat the flop, there's going to be 455 in the pot and 450 behind, the pot is just getting too big to be trying to "play poker" from out of position. Either jam or fold on the flop.

Typically you want to be folding in this spot, with a player raising you with 5 people in the hand. I guess ask yourself: would this player raise a 10 in this spot, or would he raise ALL his draws (meaning every open ender and every flush draw on this board). Unless you can clearly answer "yes" to one of those questions, fold.
Yes, this.

There has to be a plan for later streets if you are just calling the flop. And once your flop call will get you to SPR ~1, especially OOP with a hand that isn't going to improve often on the turn, you might as well just make the difficult decision now instead of OTT.

For example, in this hand, the turn is a blank, and you c/f. Then why call the raise OTF if you weren't going to ship on a blank turn?
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:34 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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minatorr, i really respect your analysis in many spots.

you seem quite advanced in your thinking RE: blockers and how that affects our decisions. could you explain why you would bet black jacks but not red jacks?
Not minatorr but 1) with J we hate less turns ( turns either maintain our improve our equity) and 2) we also block flush draws which isnt great (with black JJ villain has more flush draws i.e. we get called by a few more hands that arent made)

1 is more important

A very simple way simple way of saying what we are doing when we bet black JJ and check red JJ is:

"With black JJ we hate all turns and prefer to end the hand. With red JJ turns are fine and we can therefore toss this in our x/c range which strengthens our checking range and allows villain to bluff more of his range which is also cool."
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Not minatorr but 1) with J we hate less turns ( turns either maintain our improve our equity) and 2) we also block flush draws which isnt great (with black JJ villain has more flush draws i.e. we get called by a few more hands that arent made)

1 is more important

A very simple way simple way of saying what we are doing when we bet black JJ and check red JJ is:

"With black JJ we hate all turns and prefer to end the hand. With red JJ turns are fine and we can therefore toss this in our x/c range which strengthens our checking range and allows villain to bluff more of his range which is also cool."
thank you ava. this shows me how much i have to improve. some of you guys are on another level of analysis here.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:34 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Not minatorr but 1) with J we hate less turns ( turns either maintain our improve our equity) and 2) we also block flush draws which isnt great (with black JJ villain has more flush draws i.e. we get called by a few more hands that arent made)

1 is more important

A very simple way simple way of saying what we are doing when we bet black JJ and check red JJ is:

"With black JJ we hate all turns and prefer to end the hand. With red JJ turns are fine and we can therefore toss this in our x/c range which strengthens our checking range and allows villain to bluff more of his range which is also cool."
Couldn't have said it any better
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:46 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

Do we really need to worry about strengthening our checking range when we have an aggro image and are playing against rec calling stations?

Maybe check JJx combos in tougher games, but in the described game I am going to mash the bet button even harder.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:58 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by fishsoup View Post
Curious what other 2+2ers think, what if we x/r or x/c flop instead of C-betting? Then evaluate turn + river. Still tricky OOP.

By C-betting we put ourselves at the whim of Villain's flop raise range which might be balance with draws and nutted hands...
I'm still betting, there's $125 in the pot which is worth winning. This situation is good enough to keep betting and get value from pairs and draws. If you get raised, overall you are going to be crushed by most players.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:42 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

We bet and get called. What are we doing on blank turns? Bet again and get committed? I see a lot of good Vs flat sets OTF to get you to commit with your obv overpair OTT.

Arent we getting outplayed in such situations?

Also, what about the times, when the turn is a black overcard, we check and get thrown off our hand when V decides to bomb his draw?
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:28 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

How is everyone evaluating this hand without knowing player positions?

There are 5 people in this hand and we only know 2 positions: hero UTG+1 and CO. At a 9 handed table, the 3 missing people could all be between hero and V or could be BTN/sb/bb. It makes a YUGE difference if V raised after 3 folds or if V has 3 people left to act behind him.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:11 AM   #21
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Yes, this.

There has to be a plan for later streets if you are just calling the flop. And once your flop call will get you to SPR ~1, especially OOP with a hand that isn't going to improve often on the turn, you might as well just make the difficult decision now instead of OTT.

For example, in this hand, the turn is a blank, and you c/f. Then why call the raise OTF if you weren't going to ship on a blank turn?
The reason why I called on the flop is that at least I had to see his action on the turn against this VI bc I've played him pretty many times. He's the one who surely raises with any draw wherever his position is. And my plan after the flop was that if checks around on the turn and a river came a brick, I would induce him to bluff. And if he continues betting, probably fold as I did.
Also, pot odds seemed ok to defend.
100 to call for 355.

Btw, what do OTT and OTF mean?



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Old 04-16-2018, 12:13 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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The reason why I called on the flop is that at least I had to see his action on the turn against this VI bc I've played him pretty many times. He's the one who surely raises with any draw wherever his position is. And my plan after the flop was that if checks around on the turn and a river came a brick, I would induce him to bluff. And if he continues betting, probably fold as I did.
Also, pot odds seemed ok to defend.
100 to call for 355.

Btw, what do OTT and OTF mean?



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Do you really think he will not shove his draw on the turn (OTT)?
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:16 AM   #23
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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Originally Posted by twisting View Post
The reason why I called on the flop is that at least I had to see his action on the turn against this VI bc I've played him pretty many times. He's the one who surely raises with any draw wherever his position is. And my plan after the flop was that if checks around on the turn and a river came a brick, I would induce him to bluff. And if he continues betting, probably fold as I did.
Also, pot odds seemed ok to defend.
100 to call for 355.

Btw, what do OTT and OTF mean?



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OTF is on the flop. OTT is on the turn.

Does he bet the turn w/ strong draws or does he check to get a free card usually? This is the type of read that's difficult to get in a few orbits or sessions, I think.

So if a blank came OTT and he bets, you automatically put him on a set/2p+ and fold? He can't have a draw still if he bets OTT?
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:21 AM   #24
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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How is everyone evaluating this hand without knowing player positions?

There are 5 people in this hand and we only know 2 positions: hero UTG+1 and CO. At a 9 handed table, the 3 missing people could all be between hero and V or could be BTN/sb/bb. It makes a YUGE difference if V raised after 3 folds or if V has 3 people left to act behind him.
Yeah. I shoulda wrote it.
Pre-flop
Utg limps, hero raises to 25 in +1, CO(VI) calls, BT and BB, UTG calls.

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Old 04-16-2018, 12:38 AM   #25
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Re: 2/5 a tough spot with a red JJ

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OTF is on the flop. OTT is on the turn.

Does he bet the turn w/ strong draws or does he check to get a free card usually? This is the type of read that's difficult to get in a few orbits or sessions, I think.

So if a blank came OTT and he bets, you automatically put him on a set/2p+ and fold? He can't have a draw still if he bets OTT?
I've already wrote it. He would probably check if he was on any draw.
I think folding on the flop seems just be afraid of losing money.. 100 for 355. I put him on 22, 88, 1010, 9combos and 10 8, 9combos.

You are the one who likely folds on a flop in this type of hands. Right?
What would you put VI on when you folds on that flop without calling in that pod odds. I believe that VI's range is still too wide after his raise on the flop, but on the turn, he keeps barrelling then his range is too capped. So, I find a folding. This is how I think at the time.

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