Posting this hand for a friend.

BU straddle folds to hero utg, KcKx (1k eff) we raise 40, Co and Bu call.

Flop (130) Kd83cc we check, co checks, button 50. We flat, co flats.

Turn (280) Kd83cc - 2d we check, co check, button 110. Us 400, co fold, bu call.

River (1080) Kd83cc -2d - Ac we check, button all in 400

Hero?

Villain is a rec player, older MAWG businessman type. No reads beyond that.

My advice to my friend was to call river as played. I don't expect this player (or many average players) to be betting twice with just a flush draw. Not many combos out there either (QJcc, QTcc, JTcc, T9cc). What do we beat though? I would also like to start with a bet on this flop being that we are OOP vs two opponents. Thoughts everywhere appreciated.

Bet flop with the FD out. Another club often kills hand or action.

AP, raise turn is good.

AP, river is a crying call. We beat AK, 88, 33. Not a ton of combos, but we only have to be good 21% of the time for this to be a call.

Personally I would advocate betting the flop. Whenever someone raises (especially UTG) and then check/continues flop before trying to get stacks in, alarm bells go off in my head. Everyone expects a cbet. If I have the board crushed as your friend does then I would just make the cbet smaller, like 35, to get calls from medium-weak hands.

That said, based on the flop I see three possible lines he could have taken. IMO these depend on your friends' reads of whether V is likely to have a hand, or if he is the type to be sticky and fire when checked to.

1) Bet/bet/bet- this keeps your range slightly wider, but you don't give V a chance to bluff so he needs to have a piece of the board, which is tough in this hand, or be an absolute calling station. It's also difficult to get stacks in with this line.

2) Bet/check call/check shove (or call depending on river) - good line for when V will also call with hands that float the flop like AQ/AJ looking to take it away on the turn and then fire river.

3) Check call/check raise/shove - this line narrows your range the most and therefore makes your friend's hand look very strong. That said it's good because you get most of the money in the pot on the turn, which obviously you want when you have the nuts.

Obviously there are other lines he could take, and each line has its own dependencies on the villain, game dynamics etc., but these are the factors I would consider as I plan out the hand.

As played against I would call river.

God no. We should always be c-betting higher on wet flops. 35 is pointless. I'd probably go 90ish. Clubs aren't going to fold to a larger c-bet.

Line 1: it's going to be difficult to play for stacks regardless, but line 1 is the highest value line. If we get raised at any point, which is certainly possible, then we can play for stacks. I'd consider sizing down if I had a read that Vs might raise. If Vs dont have hands that could continue to this line, it would be difficult to get stacks in no matter what line we took and it increases the chances that we get bluffed off of our hand. I'd maybe check the river with this line both to save money if the flush hits, and give V a chance to bluff if it doesn't.

Line 2: Unless Vs are just bombing the pot with overbets, we're not going to play for stacks here either and we're allowing Vs to realize their equity for free. This line is almost always going to be less EV than just betting ourselves. This line is terrible, tbh.

Line 3: If we are planning to x/r, we should do it OTF and then bomb the turn. Sure, this line looks super strong but not any stronger than raising the turn. "But sometimes we fold out the button!" you're thinking. Sure, but in those cases it's costing us button's 110 bet OTT, but you're making 150 when he calls and setting up larger value bets on bricked turns. The other problem with intending to x/r turn is that when V does have a FD, he's going to check behind a lot... which means that we allow him to realize his equity for free. Sure, we make money when the draw misses and we check again OTR and V bluffs, but that's happening less than half of the time and we still could have made more money by charging V for his draw earlier on.

TL;DR: Either bet/bet or x/r flop/bet and then evaluate river. Both lines are going to look super strong but that's fine, we want to maximize value when V hits, not try to trick V into putting a couple extra bucks in with their marginal holdings.

x/r flop or lead flop seems good

People are saying lead flop bc there is 2 clubs out there but you have the Kc and top set so your opponents can't really call flop bet with anything other than a FD or a set

I don't think we have to be very fearful of the flush given that we have the Kc; I like a x/r on the flop and then a bet on the turn; they should be betting their FD's as well when you check as the pfr , so you can punish them the times they do

Tell us how you really feel

The problem with your argument is that it's based on the premise that the flop is wet, when it's actually really not. We have top set, and also the the King of clubs, so already it's very unlikely V has a K, and slightly less likely he has a flush draw - and as OP mentioned he doesn't have a ton of flush draw combos in the first place. He also has zero straight draws. So the majority of hands we're targeting are pocket pairs, 8x, a few fd combos and any hands V might be floating the flop with.

If we had a wet flop like KJ8cc, KT7cc, even K89cc then I agree 90 would be a good bet size. In fact I think this would be a perfect spot to use the checkraise line you suggested, because we would have more bluffs in our range, and our opponents' range to call with would be wider. But you can't just checkraise and pray he has a set of 88, you have to be open to the idea of giving him some rope as well.

Read my entire thought on this line please. There can be a ton of value in check/calling versus an aggro player, obviously villain dependent.

It's the opening to The Simpsons. The camera moves through the classroom window to show Bart doing his writing penalty on the chalkboard. He is writing:

"I will not slowplay in a multiway pot.
I will not slowplay in a multiway pot.
I will not slowplay in a multiway pot.
I will not slowplay . . ."

While the flop could obviously be wetter, it's still wet. The thing about flopping top set is that it drastically cuts down on the made hands that can continue against us: there's 88, 33 and the case K because we obviously block a lot of top pair combos. This means that most of the time we make money in this scenario it's going to be against FDs, and we should be trying to charge them accordingly. I don't know why you and OP are convinced that Vs are unlikely to have a FD, because Vs have all of the NFD combos, we only block AKs, KQs, KJs and KTs. Vs can easily call all suited clubs 45-QJ and all club Axs combos (obviously not on the river, but I'm talking about the flop). These are all reasonable hands to flat deep in LP pre. Any line we take against the FD is obviously going to get value against the few nutted combos of made hands as well.

Sure, the problem here is trying to devise a line specifically to extract value from floats. First, if our Vs aren't rocks they'll realize that this is a ****ty spot to try and float because most people are stickier on FD boards and it's multiway. Second, we are allowing our opponents' continuing ranges, which for the reasons above are heavily weighted towards flush draws, the opportunity to realize their equity for free. If we bet 35 OTF as you suggested and then our opponents check behind with their FDs, the pot will be like 200-235ish OTR and good luck getting whiffed draws to put more money in without a third club coming. Any hand that we could beat that could call a river shove would call our value bets OTF, and we charge the draws for the opportunity to realize their equity while they still have hope. Sacrificing an opportunity to pile money in OTT is criminal. I don't really like check raising flop for this reason, unless I'm pretty sure V would bet either because I know that they bet when checked to in late position or I know that they play draws aggressively. And the only real reason I would take this line would be to set up bigger value OTT. Otherwise, my line would be bet flop and turn... all of the hands that you are targeting with your line two would, by your assessment, call that flop bet anyway. My point is that by checking the turn we double screw ourselves because we will mostly lose value against both FDs and made hands, and we also give FDs the opportunity to realize their equity for free.

The thing is, one of the biggest leaks in LLSNL is a tendency to slow play and inability to extract value. It sucks that we crushed this flop so good that our primary customers are going to be FDs, but that's why we need to build the pot and get our value now, because those hands are never going to call our river shove unless they hit, and how many other hands would play for stacks here?

I should have clarified this, but if I bet small on the flop its with the intention of barreling large on the turn, I'm almost never check/calling. Didn't really discuss sizing in my first post but obviously it's crucial and will change depending on the line.

And I'm not sure where you play and obviously that will impact how you interpret what I'm saying, but there are still some players I play with who will bet whenever they're checked to, even at 2/5 5/10. I wouldn't take the second line I posted against a good reg for instance.

I agree that slowplaying can be a huge leak for lots of players but there's still benefit to examining it as an option that can make us the most money.

As played would you call river?

Nowadays, I play in MD and occasionally Vegas. I used to play in London in grad school. In my games, it's pretty V dependent and obviously we have no real reads on Vs here since it's OP's friend. I'll admit I did misread your line on part 2 at first and though it was check call flop and check raise turn, but I still think checking is really problematic for all of the reasons I articulated above.

As played, I would sigh call the river but I don't like it at all. We are getting 3.5:1 and are at the top of our range. I haven't done the combinatorics and it may be incorrect, but I don't think I could find a fold here. I know personally that I would absolutely monkey tilt if I folded and V decided to turn the case K into a bluff.

What about you?

xCall flop, xRaise turn with Kc is reasonable if players are somewhat aggressive, if not it's still better to cbet, even if you block calling range a lot.
BU is rec businessman and was closing the action on the button straddle, that means that he has much more suited combos there. Check-calling the river can only be justified if villain is capable to ship hopeless bluff of 400$ into 1000$ with busted diamond draw(has to be aggressive enough to bet it on the flop vs 2players), or if he spotted in turning hands into bluff, inadequate lines, or weird slowplays(in this stacksizes, I expect to see 3b-shove with set or 2pairs on a heavy draw turn). Don't see enough bluffs there.
Shipping is probably the worst option, cause we have less then 50% with calling range, and also A is a scary card for him.
Alot of times villain might think that he has some sd value with any pair, or simply give up. Check-fold if check-calling reasons are not met.

Call river as played.

As played, river is a call given the odds with the two highest clubs out. If he has a hand like 5c4c, tough beat.

Flop - while Hero may have the board pretty well covered with the Kc, I'd still bet multi-way. Could be small, but bet. HU could be a check.