Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2020, 03:48 AM   #1
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Utg (800ish) is loose with his vpip but not aggressive. In the hour or so he's been at the table he opened JJ utg other wise he's cc or limp/calling.

HJ (covers) is a reg, he and I clash here n there. He's decent, more aggressive than the table average but like most villains he's too loose pre and tends to be unbalanced in some spots.

Button (800ish) is straight forward, close to being a nit.

Hero (1100ish) only hj knows hero. However, hero has been aggro but not too sure of the other two villain even cares.

Utg opens 20, hj calls h contemplates 3b eith ATcc, but because utg had a snug open raising raise chose to just flat and play accordingly, bu calls 4 ways to flop

964r x to h, 40, utg and hj calls
Turn (200) 6s bdfd comes in x to h, 130 utg folds, hj calls

River (430) 7x x to h

X back or triple off here? If triple off, sizing?

Also, I would like to have at least 1 club in an ideal situation to bet on the flop, but, since bu was nitty and utg didnt cbet, I thought I could barrel here (if I need to) and take the pot later. I thought I would need to barrel often which is why I bet half pot on the flop.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 04:23 AM   #2
RoadtoPro
Pooh-Bah
 
RoadtoPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: printing EV
Posts: 4,831
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Are you in the CO?

AP pre, I wouldn’t bet after whiffing 4 ways very much- even after the pre flop raiser checks. Definitely want a BDFD/a better texture when you do.

Turn is a bad card to continue on. You rarely, if ever, improve on this card after betting flop multi-way. Especially 3 ways, I think it’s fairly ambitious to continue here without picking up equity/on a really good card.

Definitely giving up river.

imo

Last edited by RoadtoPro; 12-04-2020 at 04:29 AM.
RoadtoPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 04:49 AM   #3
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 8,119
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadtoPro View Post
Are you in the CO?

AP pre, I wouldn’t bet after whiffing 4 ways very much- even after the pre flop raiser checks. Definitely want a BDFD/a better texture when you do.

Turn is a bad card to continue on. You rarely, if ever, improve on this card after betting flop multi-way. Especially 3 ways, I think it’s fairly ambitious to continue here without picking up equity/on a really good card.

Definitely giving up river.

imo

To be fair, once we arrive to the river this way, this is probably one of our better bluff hands. We just probably shouldn’t have started barreling away with AThh to begin with. Our T8s made a straight, 87s and 75s made a pair and might win sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 01:23 PM   #4
snowman
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ON THE ROAD AGAIN
Posts: 1,529
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

we called a raise pre against a labeled snug player

then 4 way when we totally whiff, why are we betting here?????

I don't understand the logic if there even was any ?????
snowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 01:59 PM   #5
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadtoPro View Post
Are you in the CO?

AP pre, I wouldn’t bet after whiffing 4 ways very much- even after the pre flop raiser checks. Definitely want a BDFD/a better texture when you do.

Turn is a bad card to continue on. You rarely, if ever, improve on this card after betting flop multi-way. Especially 3 ways, I think it’s fairly ambitious to continue here without picking up equity/on a really good card.

Definitely giving up river.

imo

Agree with a lot of what you said. Based on the description of UTG, are you leaning 3b or cc pre? And for what it's worth, HJ knows I 3b often, so not 100% sure how often i take down the pot pre. I am in the CO, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
To be fair, once we arrive to the river this way, this is probably one of our better bluff hands. We just probably shouldn’t have started barreling away with AThh to begin with. Our T8s made a straight, 87s and 75s made a pair and might win sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Knowing the reg (hj) he often leads the flop when UTG checked with his top pairs, so you're right that our 87/75 will win vs him sometimes. The fact that he x/c 2x made it more likely he had a draw than a pair. Knowing this, do you barrel or check back hopeing v had bdfd and missed?



Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
we called a raise pre against a labeled snug player

then 4 way when we totally whiff, why are we betting here?????

I don't understand the logic if there even was any ?????
It happens.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 02:16 PM   #6
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 26,775
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

As played looks like we should fire a 3rd barrel, $300+. Based on hj description his range for getting to river should not be that strong, and he may fold a lot of 2p hands.

Like others said, flop and turn bet seem inadvisible. Also having chosen to bet the turn, i don't like the sizing at all.
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 03:06 PM   #7
snowman
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ON THE ROAD AGAIN
Posts: 1,529
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
[B]




It happens.
We should be asking ourselves WHY ?

what was the goal of the flop bet?
will it work against this line-up?

what are we trying to accomplish with the turn bet?
will it work against the 1 player we have history with ?

What are we Repping here with these 2 bets?

now that we are here YES I'm firing a 3 barrell $300-$325

then weather it works or fails I'm going out to the parking lot and slamming my fingers in the car door till it sinks into my thick skull never to put myself in this position again
snowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 04:08 PM   #8
RoadtoPro
Pooh-Bah
 
RoadtoPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: printing EV
Posts: 4,831
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
Agree with a lot of what you said. Based on the description of UTG, are you leaning 3b or cc pre? And for what it's worth, HJ knows I 3b often, so not 100% sure how often i take down the pot pre. I am in the CO, yes.
I usually lean 3-bet/fold in every position except the button and BB but I end up calling in a lot of spots too . And rightfully so, there are a lot of situations where calling is perfectly fine and the best option.

I wouldn’t put much merit in the fact that V opened UTG because I’m guessing this guy based on the description isn’t that positionally aware.

You’re not necessarily trying to take it down. The bigger key is if HJ and/or UTG is capable of 4betting you light. Usually, the answer is no.

Postflop, I wouldn’t put too much weight into the fact that after betting flop and then you don’t arrive to the river with much worse in this spot. However, firing seems okay AP I guess.
RoadtoPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 06:29 PM   #9
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
We should be asking ourselves WHY ?



what was the goal of the flop bet?

will it work against this line-up?



what are we trying to accomplish with the turn bet?

will it work against the 1 player we have history with ?



What are we Repping here with these 2 bets?



now that we are here YES I'm firing a 3 barrell $300-$325



then weather it works or fails I'm going out to the parking lot and slamming my fingers in the car door till it sinks into my thick skull never to put myself in this position again
Lol, my dude i stated in the OP why I bet the flop, and what I was anticipating.

- Bu was a nit
- Utg's hand was faceup when he opened and checked flop
- hj plays a wide range when he open limps or calls a raise and he's very unlikely to check an 8x when utg checks to him.

This is a standard situation at a 2-5 table especially when I am IP. Thanks for the reply.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 06:33 PM   #10
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadtoPro View Post
I usually lean 3-bet/fold in every position except the button and BB but I end up calling in a lot of spots too . And rightfully so, there are a lot of situations where calling is perfectly fine and the best option.

I wouldn’t put much merit in the fact that V opened UTG because I’m guessing this guy based on the description isn’t that positionally aware.

You’re not necessarily trying to take it down. The bigger key is if HJ and/or UTG is capable of 4betting you light. Usually, the answer is no.

Postflop, I wouldn’t put too much weight into the fact that after betting flop and then you don’t arrive to the river with much worse in this spot. However, firing seems okay AP I guess.
I doubt UTG ever 4b light. But, at the table I didnt think he would fold to a 3b either after being the PFR. Additionally, HJ would come in after UTG calls a 3b which was another reason I chose call instead of 3b pre.

As mentioned in the OP, I wouldve liked to have a club in my hand to bet the flop but the decision was to bet small and barrel vs giving up on the flop and moving on to the next hand.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 06:51 PM   #11
RoadtoPro
Pooh-Bah
 
RoadtoPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: printing EV
Posts: 4,831
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

I fall victim to this way more than most, so I understand, but always keep in mind that there just aren’t that many spots to profitably get creative across multiple streets in a live game given the pace of play and multi-way nature of most pots.

You’re probably not doing anything wrong if you don’t get more than one or two opportunities to blast off in any given short session.

The bigger mistake wrt this is passing up all the sure fire bluff spots in small/medium sized pots, which most do.

imo
RoadtoPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 10:25 PM   #12
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadtoPro View Post
I fall victim to this way more than most, so I understand, but always keep in mind that there just aren’t that many spots to profitably get creative across multiple streets in a live game given the pace of play and multi-way nature of most pots.

You’re probably not doing anything wrong if you don’t get more than one or two opportunities to blast off in any given short session.

The bigger mistake wrt this is passing up all the sure fire bluff spots in small/medium sized pots, which most do.

imo
Valid points.

I ended up checking back. I didn't think the 7 was a good card to triple off on n it hits hj range more than mine. Sadly, villain had 87s, turned bdfd which makes sense with his line. I thiught about tripping off. Maybe I got gun shy n checked back, who knows.

I wanted to confirm if we should or shouldn't barrel off given the line we took.

Hj is also the type to call any decent size bet with even a 7. I think I think wouldve had to bet pot at least to take him off a 7.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 03:53 PM   #13
OmahaDonk
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,282
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Not betting flop ever. As played pot sized bet on river
OmahaDonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 07:29 PM   #14
Derked
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 85
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Stone bluffing in the middle with a whatever hand in a 4 way pot seems like a stone torch here. X the flop and play the turn accordingly.
Derked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2020, 12:29 PM   #15
Javanewt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: a farm in the country
Posts: 10,636
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

To me, 3betting pre is not necessarily to get people to fold, it's to get them to come along with worse and to take control of the hand. If someone 4bets, you can make a decision based on who they are, position, etc.

Agree with others that I don't like betting this flop 4 ways, and I'm not firing the turn after I get two calls. UTG is rarely folding an over pair, and HJ could have anything.

Now that you are here, a river bet isn't terrible, but it depends on how sticky HJ is.
Javanewt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2020, 01:05 PM   #16
snowman
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ON THE ROAD AGAIN
Posts: 1,529
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
We should be asking ourselves WHY ?

what was the goal of the flop bet?
will it work against this line-up?

what are we trying to accomplish with the turn bet?
will it work against the 1 player we have history with ?

What are we Repping here with these 2 bets?

now that we are here YES I'm firing a 3 barrell $300-$325

then weather it works or fails I'm going out to the parking lot and slamming my fingers in the car door till it sinks into my thick skull never to put myself in this position again
not picking on you OP just trying to get you to see what you printed.

you decided to bet flop to take it on later streets
this means a follow thru 3rd bullet is needed.

if V is sticky and doesn't like to fold then check flop as plan won't work
snowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2020, 06:22 PM   #17
Balerion1
adept
 
Balerion1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
To me, 3betting pre is not necessarily to get people to fold, it's to get them to come along with worse and to take control of the hand. If someone 4bets, you can make a decision based on who they are, position, etc.

Agree with others that I don't like betting this flop 4 ways, and I'm not firing the turn after I get two calls. UTG is rarely folding an over pair, and HJ could have anything.

Now that you are here, a river bet isn't terrible, but it depends on how sticky HJ is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
not picking on you OP just trying to get you to see what you printed.

you decided to bet flop to take it on later streets
this means a follow thru 3rd bullet is needed.

if V is sticky and doesn't like to fold then check flop as plan won't work


Looking back at this hand after the emotional residue of the hand is over it's a clear check back/give up flop w/o a club.

@snowman, didn't think you were picking on me so your comments are welcomed.

ap, i checked back and v rivered a pair. Had I bet close to pot I think he folds, but, not too sure if i should or shouldn't bet close to pot. I'd be repping a think value range there. With all that being said, I should probably just check it back and look for a better spot.
Balerion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2020, 06:56 AM   #18
javi
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,472
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
since bu was nitty and utg didnt cbet, I thought I could barrel here (if I need to) and take the pot later.
You cant just up and decide you're going to win pots because you feel like it, you have to take into consideration texture, and this texture is awful for you, especially with 3 other players in the hand. Pick better spots.
javi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2020, 07:47 AM   #19
Badreg2017
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,900
Re: 2-5 throw a third barrel as a bluff?

I check all three streets, definitely don’t like the turn bet and not a fan of bluffing river.
Badreg2017 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive