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Old 02-29-2012, 06:56 AM   #51
ozmosis313
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Actually I just noticed board ran off 3,3 so any ace will be more apt to call because with the king on board kicker won't play. Thus I would like to ammend my response and beleive you should bet much larger like $200 plus on this river as villain will think they are chopping alot.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:49 AM   #52
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

I think we are looking at AQ-; 77 is popping the turn. He may think is it a chop. For that reason, plus getting only light value OTT, letís lean toward the high-side, say $190.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:24 AM   #53
Saul T. Nutz
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654 View Post
Don't lash at me. In no way was my post critical of you. ...
Sorry if it came off that way, not my intent. The small bet sizing on the flop and turn was because I thought he was weak and didn't want to get a fold. I also wanted to give him an opportunity to bluff. That didn't work. Oh well. My point was feel free to call me a moron for betting too little. I have thick skin. When I got called on the turn (And not a fold or a raise) I realized I likely made a mistake by keeping the pot small. Now I essentially have the nuts so of course I'm betting here, but that's not my concern.

My question is as played, what does my range look like to a competent winning 2/5 & 5/10 TAG?

Getting raised makes sense, getting folds makes sense, just getting called didn't make sense to me.

This is a board I never expected to get paid off on by this villain OOP given that he limp called pre. I can't think of many hands he can put me on that he beats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654 View Post
I don't remember you mentioning him seeing a bluff from you? ...
No bluffs were shown by me, but of the few hands I played, I took a lot of pots without showdowns.

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Originally Posted by Climhazzard View Post
what is the question? betsizing? range?
...
My question is all about range. Mainly what range does this villain assign to me?
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:40 PM   #54
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Wow - so much anger and hostility. Guy was asking for feedback. Don't see why people need to be so abrasive even if they think someone is misusing the term TAG or whatever.

@OP: I think the simple feedback is that sometimes all you can do is bet for value and let the other guy level himself into making a bad call. Your sizing was too low throughout. You could be right to say 'what could he call a betx3 with otr'? But sometimes there is just no other way to try to get value... if anything, sometimes when you 'bet too much' for the situation they think 'you are polarized and a repping a very small value range' so they will bluff-catch more than more 'reasonable' sized bets.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:31 PM   #55
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Cliffs:
a) Title = not that bad.
b) some cranky people got involved ITT.
c) bet, bet, bet as much as you can with the effective nuts.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:11 PM   #56
chopper5654
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Quote:
The small bet sizing on the flop and turn was because I thought he was weak and didn't want to get a fold. I also wanted to give him an opportunity to bluff. That didn't work. Oh well. My point was feel free to call me a moron for betting too little.
Hard to call you a moron if that was your read. I know people like to read a hand and think you need to bet it harder, but during gameplay, sometimes you change your sizing for specific reasons. Sure, maybe it was wrong this time, but it could also be exactly what got you paid by his hand.

I can't put you on much other than super strong stuff. I can't even imagine you bluffing 3streets here or turning a hand into a bluff just because I am calling you down. I don't know what this guy called with that was strong enough to actually call you.

And, I wouldn't worry much about it. It's not likely happening again from him. I doubt you received any info worth carrying forward from him, specifically. Just keep valuebetting this guy when he calls. You may learn more over the next few showdowns you see out of him.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:33 PM   #57
PokerIsFrustrating
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul T. Nutz View Post
Sorry if it came off that way, not my intent. The small bet sizing on the flop and turn was because I thought he was weak and didn't want to get a fold. I also wanted to give him an opportunity to bluff. That didn't work. Oh well. My point was feel free to call me a moron for betting too little.
You're not a moron. Your reads and goals were totally reasonable. Morons are people who have no reading comprehen . . . (ok ok I'll let that one go).

At the table there's a huge chance I do the same thing because I want callers etc.

Thinking about it though with nut-type hands we should be trying to maximize our value against his big hands, whatever they may be. Of course we may lose some bets when he doesn't have much, but if he doesn't have much how much can we really win?

Plus we don't even know he's really weak. He limp/called pre but he c/c the flop. He has to have something. C/c, check could be like AQ. It would be much different if he was the pf raiser and we had 77 and he checked to us.

So IMO you don't have to pot/pot, but I think we should bet bigger because if he's on a hand like A6s or the case king he might not even call 1/2 on the turn.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:01 PM   #58
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

I'd bet $130 to $150 here. I think that's the most you'll get without him folding a ton of the time. His range here is AQo-ATo and AJs-A2s. If he shoves, tank for 10 minutes then call him and say "you probably got it" then wait for him to show his hand
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:10 PM   #59
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIsFrustrating View Post
My only problem with the line here is that we have essentially the nuts. We lose to 33, A3 and AA and nothing else.

And yet, we're looking at betting like <2/3 pot, 1/2 pot, and like a small river bet. That's not how we make money with the nuts.

Sure, if we bet more he often folds. But he's often folding regardless of what we bet. So instead of targeting his like A4s hands, we should be targeting his 77, AQ, AK, A3/33 (not a3/33 on the river, but before that).

He could conceivably be afraid to open up his stack, and it would be a massive disaster if he made a scared c/c on the river with AK or 77.
We beat A3. The only hands that beat us are AA, 77 and he likely never has those hands based on his line before river. We should bet small to get value from Ax which is 90+% of his range here. AK almost always raises pre and AQ is the same as any other ace here. He basically neve has 77 after check calling two streets. I could see him havig A3s but its just so rare for him to have that based on blockers that you're losing value by betting too big
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:27 PM   #60
ShipIt2WinIt
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
We beat A3. The only hands that beat us are AA, 77 and he likely never has those hands based on his line before river. We should bet small to get value from Ax which is 90+% of his range here. AK almost always raises pre and AQ is the same as any other ace here. He basically neve has 77 after check calling two streets. I could see him havig A3s but its just so rare for him to have that based on blockers that you're losing value by betting too big

Bumps a 2year old thread to correct someone that we beat A3, then says that 77 beats us? Got to be a troll.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:50 AM   #61
gutshot000
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

I think I'm betting large on this river, probably around 250 that fact that his kicker doesn't play is probably good for us because it was probably **** anyway. I expect him to have an ace here a lot a4s+ a8+
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:18 AM   #62
AintNoLimit
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Re: 2/5 TAG on TAG violence - Range Question

This hand was played poorly overall. You should target the top of their range when you flop huge. This is 2 large bets and then a pause - pot river since this V will expect you to try and shove him off a chop. The pot should have been twice this size.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:33 AM   #63
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Only street I like is preflop. I'm betting 3/4 pot on the flop since the only likely hands that call are Ax anyways, and maybe a gutshot that I dont mind folding out. Turn and river its the same story, bet big and target his Ax type of hands.

As played, I bet either 180 (slightly under 200 for psychological reasons), 230ish if I think he folds Ax to an overbet, or an overbet to polarize my range and get max value. In my experience in spots like this, 150 calls 180, and 200 calls 230, so eke out the extra value.

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