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2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM 2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM

02-10-2016 , 02:37 PM
$2/5 Saturday night local casino very late/early its about 4am most our table has been here since about 6pm, had a few people jump in a few hours ago from broken tables. Most of us are pretty deep, 6 of the 9 players a regs not a lot of previous history with them because room is so big. But do know them and have played a varying amounts with them.
(H)~$5k Late 30's Hisp, rec regular(weekends) probably seen as TAG, mb a little LAG pre, been on fire all night, catching cards (making sets) and making good reads/lay downs...good night in general.
(V1)~$2.5k Asain guy 30's,pro player, usually plays 5/10 or 10/20 he came from broken table about 2hrs ago. Probably best player in the casino. Reads well, thinking player makes good bets has alot of gamble in him, but usually when he has outs. Everyone in the place knows him by name.
(V2)~3.5k Asian guy 40's regular 2/5 player very good, thinking, aggressive almost a mini carbon copy of V1. Just a level or 2 below V1.

OTTH
UTG Straddle for $10
(V2) MP calls $10
(V1) HJ raises to $35
(H) B calls w/ AQ
(UTG&V2) Call $35
FLOP($140) Q 10 3
Checks to V1 who leads for $80
H???

Last edited by poyo; 02-10-2016 at 02:49 PM.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 02:46 PM
Against the best player in the casino and someone nearly that good, I could find a fold here pre. We have position, but a top pair type hand deep, giving expert V's plenty of space to put us to difficult decisions. I'd much rather have a pp or sc here.

As played, you can't fold. Raising starts building a huge pot, which we definitely don't want. Call and see what V2 does on the flop and what V1 does on the turn.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 02:57 PM
Start with a standard call. There are possible draws to be worried about but folding is too weak and raising is over playing your hand after the preflop action. Call and see what develops on turn.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 03:40 PM
Will V1 turn overbet the pot this deep if he gets "no" action on the flop? (As in if you call and the other two fold.)
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
Will V1 turn overbet the pot this deep if he gets "no" action on the flop? (As in if you call and the other two fold.)
At some point we can usually expect him to make some kind of move. Turn or Flop, especially if any kind of "scare" card comes out and mb even on a dry board.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 04:32 PM
Is a 3! Pre too out of line?.
AP I just call. A raise is only good for you if he folds as it sounds like you're going to have MUBS with this guy if he does anything else.
I don't see what hands you're really afraid of on the flop. You have a good/ not great hand. Although it's not likely to improve. You have the best hand here the vast majority of the time.
If you aren't playing AQ OTB to a standard raise then what the hell are you going to play against V1? AK, KK+??
Might as well leave the table.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 04:37 PM
You want to play a small pot. Flat and eval turn.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 05:06 PM
This is a mandatory 3b pre from the button against an aggressive reg who should be opening wide with deep stacks and a skill edge. AQo is way stronger his HJ opening range and should be an easy 3b. If you don't 3b a hand as strong as AQ then you are allowing him to open extremely wide and realize much of his equity. A good reg is not the type of player who will pay you off huge when you hit a rare Axx flop against his AJ, so there isn't much value in flatting pre. On the other hand, taking a passive line means that he often wins when you both have air which is much more common.

You should have some 3b bluffs and you need to 3b AQ to have a greater value 3b frequency in order to allow for more bluffs. Assuming he has some 4b bluffs, which he should unless he views you as fishy and only having a tight value 3b range, you are plenty deep enough to call a reasonable 4b in position like 235-320 after you 3b to 90-105. If he has no 4b bluffs which even some good regs may have until they adjust to your 3b, then 3b a polarized range and fold often to his 4b. He will be forced to open tighter or bleed money by folding too often to a 3b in position.

As played calling the flop is probably the best option absent some sort of dynamic where you can raise for thin value by repping draws on the fairly wet board.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 05:06 PM
call is 100% standard and good, but I'm also leaning towards a r/f, x/f, x/c line as a lower-variance alternative. Especially if you are going to hate life when the others fold and he leads $215 on a blank turn
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 06:01 PM
Ok seems like most say just call on the flop, which I did. I was contemplating a raise here.
V2 calls...I'd prefer to get it HU...should have raised??
Turn($380) 8
V2 checks
V1 checks
H??
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyo
Ok seems like most say just call on the flop, which I did. I was contemplating a raise here.
V2 calls...I'd prefer to get it HU...should have raised??
Turn($380) 8
V2 checks
V1 checks
H??
I think this is a check behind.....either Vs could have hit their flush and checked it for deception.....betting here would induce a raise from bluffs as wells as made hands.......since we have the Q we can draw out on hands that have us beat for free.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 06:17 PM
Use your position and check the turn against the described Vs. You have SD value and have picked up some equity with the BDFD (albeit not the nut draw). You are not in good relative position in this hand, and since you elected not to raise the flop, I don't see changing gears here as a good play.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 07:44 PM
I'm fine flatting pre but I like raising this flop against 2 other players in this pot. I don't want to be playing a guessing game the whole hand and just calling down (ur hand looks underrepped imo). Raise to $240 and hope to take the pot down. If called, proceeding cautiously the remainder of hand.

As played, check the turn for pot control and SDV.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 07:56 PM
Bet/ fold
Hopefully they fold and you take it down.
I'm fine with checking. I just think you have less ways to win the hand. You'll have no FE on the river. You would, but I don't think you'd use it. I probably wouldn't either.
If called
Check river to try and get to showdown.

Just not sure how else you're winning this hand.
Say you check behind how much are you calling when led into on the river? Say a diamond comes. Are you calling a large bet?
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 08:34 PM
I think having V2 in the hand actually helps you a bit here. It increases the chance somebody has a flush but reduces the chances of anybody getting creative. You can bet/fold $200 or check and go for some value on river. I would go for about a 50/50 between those two options.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-10-2016 , 09:05 PM
probably reduces our upside, but I like a check behind on the turn. I just don't like the idea of b/f when we have the Qd.

Non-diamond river card and the two villains go nuts.... I'm thinking about a table change.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 10:33 AM
I decide to check. it's possible V1 or V2 hit their flush.
River($380) A
Board Q 10 3 8 A
V2 Checks
V1 leads for $250
Hero??(A Q )

Last edited by poyo; 02-11-2016 at 10:43 AM.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 10:43 AM
I'm skeptical he's doing this into two players with a worse flush, but I'm still calling.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 10:54 AM
I'm calling here. We've sort of under repped our hand and this is a great spot for the villain to get out of line and try and take down a pot where weakness was shown. Him being such a good aggressive player, I see him following through on the turn with a lot of Kx hands with the king of diamonds. I don't really see a hand like KQ or KT with the king of diamonds checking a turn with so much equity. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to call here. If he has it then nice hand. If V2 ends up raising after we call then this is an easy fold. But personally I wouldn't be too concerned with that.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wincet
This is a mandatory 3b pre from the button against an aggressive reg who should be opening wide with deep stacks and a skill edge. AQo is way stronger his HJ opening range and should be an easy 3b. If you don't 3b a hand as strong as AQ then you are allowing him to open extremely wide and realize much of his equity. A good reg is not the type of player who will pay you off huge when you hit a rare Axx flop against his AJ, so there isn't much value in flatting pre. On the other hand, taking a passive line means that he often wins when you both have air which is much more common.

You should have some 3b bluffs and you need to 3b AQ to have a greater value 3b frequency in order to allow for more bluffs. Assuming he has some 4b bluffs, which he should unless he views you as fishy and only having a tight value 3b range, you are plenty deep enough to call a reasonable 4b in position like 235-320 after you 3b to 90-105. If he has no 4b bluffs which even some good regs may have until they adjust to your 3b, then 3b a polarized range and fold often to his 4b. He will be forced to open tighter or bleed money by folding too often to a 3b in position.

As played calling the flop is probably the best option absent some sort of dynamic where you can raise for thin value by repping draws on the fairly wet board.
Best post in this thread. The hand itself is trivial once you call pre, unless you have some post flop reads that you haven't told us about. Call check call. A fold is very nitty and it's good to see if his hand is kqx or kxs if you are beat for info.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyo
I decide to check. it's possible V1 or V2 hit their flush.
River($380) A
Board Q 10 3 8 A
V2 Checks
V1 leads for $250
Hero??(A Q )
Not trying to be confrontational, but do you check everytime a board flushes? I mean if the reasoning is because they might have hit their flush then you should never be betting because it always possible..

Like I said I don't mind the check OTT I'm just not doing it without a solid plan of what to do on the river. Especially when a diamond comes.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwannabe
Not trying to be confrontational, but do you check everytime a board flushes? I mean if the reasoning is because they might have hit their flush then you should never be betting because it always possible..

Like I said I don't mind the check OTT I'm just not doing it without a solid plan of what to do on the river. Especially when a diamond comes.
No worries, I posted the hand for a reason, I think I played it terrible from start to finish. I try to take something from every hand, more so the ones I feel I played badly.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyo
No worries, I posted the hand for a reason, I think I played it terrible from start to finish. I try to take something from every hand, more so the ones I feel I played badly.
Passive isn't always bad. Passive just normally ensures you have less ways to win. I don't think you played it terribly. But you did play it passively, good players have a habit of making other players do that.

AP: I'd be hard pressed not to call here even though I doubt I'm good. Just kinda the way the hand played out.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 01:45 PM
Call river. There are only 2 hands that make sense for V1 to have that beat us, KdQx and KdKx, and both us and the other V have played this hand super passively
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote
02-11-2016 , 02:19 PM
Call river. Despite getting a bit over 2-1 this is closer to a crying call then anything because his betting anything weaker then a jack high flush is a bluff. Still can't give up the 2nd nuts to a good player without some strong read or reason to think we are beat.
2/5 Super deep, very late/early PAHWM Quote

      
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