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Old 05-07-2013, 05:00 AM   #1
meshanti
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$2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Villain : aggro-donk, he'll play any two suited PF
Hero: tight, tho, I don't think V notices or cares

$2/5 NL (9 handed)
UTG+1 Hero ($800)
BB V ($425)

Hero is dealt AA

1 fold, Hero raises to $25, 4 folds, 2 calls, V calls $25

Flop ($100) 764
2 checks, Hero bets $60, 2 folds, V insta-raises to $250

As hero contemplates, V announces: "it's going all in on the turn". I know he either has a combo draw or two pair with >97% certainty.

Can hero just call this, intending to fold OTT on any non 4 or A ?
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:11 AM   #2
sauhund
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

just a horrible board with AA multiway against a guy with such a wide range of suited connectors. iīd let it go.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:14 AM   #3
djkelly69
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Villain will have 150 left with a 600 pot if you call flop. Of course it is all going in on the turn.

If that you are that certain about his range, then it is a snap fold imo.

Whether you should be that certain is the question. 99-TT, flush draws, pair plus oesd, etc all seem likely as well.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:21 AM   #4
Shredtilurdead420
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

This guy seems pretty confident.. It seems like an easy fold when he makes such a large ch-raise and you know he's playing atc
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:00 AM   #5
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

fold

you cant call and leave 150 behind with 600 in the middle
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:50 AM   #6
DreamIsDestiny
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Ez fold.

My motto: when the best case scenario is a coin flop, then fold.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:04 AM   #7
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

I do wonder why the guy did not put all his money in on the flop instead of the $250 reraise. The " speech" is also questionable. He is showing strength , but why would he want you to fold? This is not an easy fold for me! Don't think a call is correct here. Shove back or fold based on your experience with this guy!
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:27 AM   #8
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Hero's line: "no, it is going all in on the flop" and slide out the rest.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:36 AM   #9
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Man, I love it,...., lol,...lol
You guys have to learn to let loose two Aces OTF in certain situations else you'll never make it playing NL for cash. If you would have 99 in the same situation instead AA you would let the hand loose. But not AA because the Aces have something that excites your brain that makes you feel entitle to win. lol, lol, lol..., Like last night I had two dudes against me in a raised pot when I move all-in OTF with OESFD+Pair and they both got big hands: AA and a set (AA vs. 66) on a 658 and mine 78 Got them both for over $500 each and I turned a 4 and some insignificant river brick. They both got pissed off because I ship with 8 high. ...., lol,,,lol ... got after the hand..,

AK

Last edited by Octavian; 05-07-2013 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:41 AM   #10
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
Man, I love it,...., lol,...lol
You guys have to learn to let loose two Aces OTF in certain situations else you'll never make it playing NL for cash. If you would have 99 in the same situation instead AA you would let the hand loose. But not AA because the Aces have something that excites your brain that makes you feel entitle to win. lol, lol, lol...,

AK
and you, octavian, should let loose that stubborn mindset you seem to have, so many of your posts are just (pretty bad) generalisations.

K9ds
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:45 AM   #11
Avaritia
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

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Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
Man, I love it,...., lol,...lol
You guys have to learn to let loose two Aces OTF in certain situations else you'll never make it playing NL for cash. If you would have 99 in the same situation instead AA you would let the hand loose. But not AA because the Aces have something that excites your brain that makes you feel entitle to win. lol, lol, lol...,

AK
It has nothing do do with Aces. AA is the same as JJ here.

It is not, however, the same as 99. 99 would take out a significant amount of the combo draws that are in villains range. We are likely worst case scenario flipping here, and if you choose not to flip in a situation like this you are leaving a decent amount of money on the table.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:57 AM   #12
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Never folding on this drawy board against an aggro villain who plays all suited ****. Yes it hits his range because his range is any two from fifty-two. But his raising range here is a hell of a lot more than 2pr plus- In fact, it is more waited towards flushdraws and OESDs because there are simply more of them to have.

This is what these spewy guys do. They play any ****, because they think it makes them fascinating to play 2h6h. Then when they hit any part of the board with their trash, they play it like the nuts (although when they do hit the nuts they slam on the brakes).

This is snappity, snappity shove. His raise is effectively an AI and we are getting way over 1.5 to 1. Pump your fist. Frot the dealer.

Betfold with overpairs works against a large part of the LLSNL player pool, but not against these guys. In situations like this you just have to lock horns for stacks.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:59 AM   #13
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
It has nothing do do with Aces. AA is the same as JJ here.
Yes, I agree
AA in this situation are not better then 22

AK
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:01 AM   #14
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
Man, I love it,...., lol,...lol
You guys have to learn to let loose two Aces OTF in certain situations else you'll never make it playing NL for cash. If you would have 99 in the same situation instead AA you would let the hand loose. But not AA because the Aces have something that excites your brain that makes you feel entitle to win. lol, lol, lol..., Like last night I had two dudes against me in a raised pot when I move all-in OTF with OESFD+Pair and they both got big hands: AA and a set (AA vs. 66) on a 658 and mine 78 Got them both for over $500 each and I turned a 4 and some insignificant river brick. They both got pissed off because I ship with 8 high. ...., lol,,,lol ... got after the hand..,

AK
AA does not equal 99 at all. Consider how much of his range would be flush draws with overs to 99, and the occasional slowplayed TT-KK.

And thatīs the worst story Iīve ever heard btw.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:03 AM   #15
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

Shove or fold. If u are that certain about his range just shove all in. U are about a coin flip against big draws but with the dead money u only need around 40% or so to break even
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:04 AM   #16
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
AA does not equal 99 at all. Consider how much of his range would be flush draws with overs to 99, and the occasional slowplayed TT-KK.
This. People limp call or flat raises with 99-jj all the time so 99 is much different from aa here. Also they can have overs to 99-kk in addition to their combo draws whereas there are no overs to aa
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:18 AM   #17
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
AA does not equal 99 at all. Consider how much of his range would be flush draws with overs to 99, and the occasional slowplayed TT-KK.

And thatīs the worst story Iīve ever heard btw.
It all depends on the texture of the flop.
AA are actually worse then 99 on 56j or 345 because with AA you got hope and may lose a big stack .., lol .., The flop is the whole game, after the flop all it's practically just basic with very few exceptions.

AK

Last edited by Octavian; 05-07-2013 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:36 AM   #18
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

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Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
It all depends on the texture of the flop.
AA are actually worse then 99 on 56j or 345 because with AA you got hope and may lose a big stack .., lol .., The flop is the whole game, after the flop all it's practically just basic with very few exceptions.

AK
You are correct that it is a huge leak that people get married to strong preflop hands and are likely to spew when they are clearly beat because of this. But we are not clearly beat in this specific situation.

Good postflop play is based on calculating your pot and fold equity on different flop textures against different villains and ranges. Folding overpairs on drawy boards headsup against aggro ATC monkeys for <100bbs getting over 1.5/1 is rarely correct IMO.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:09 AM   #19
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

stack off versus this guy
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:19 PM   #20
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

I think this is one of those rare instances with that flop texture where you have to shove. But, I wouldn't be crazy about it. Most likely he has some type of pair and straight draw combo your ahead of, sometimes a straight and flush draw combo, and occasionally a poorly played straight or set. The speech "it's going in on the turn" most likely indicates it's a draw in my opinion. Occasionally it's a made straight that wants you to believe he has a draw.

Shove, and reload if he sucks out. Any other player type and its an easy fold though.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:27 PM   #21
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Re: $2/5 Spot with AA OTF/multi-way

It's not about being in love with AA at all. It's about the math and the V and his play so far that makes this a shove or fold question. I think in the end I shove back and take my lumps or his stack!
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