2-5 Spot with 88 against reg - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Oh yeah, I misspoke. The flop is not fine.

Fold flop to the c-bet. Very tight V opens UTG and then c-bets 4-way. Without a better read, that makes flop a good fold all by itself. And the fact there are 2 more villains left to act on the flop after you act makes it slightly more of a fold.

Calling flop... and then barreling turn... and considering barreling river... vs. a V we peg as a nit opening UTG and c-betting 4-way and sticking around in a large pot... it's a mistake. I wouldn't play 88 pre in this spot if you plan to punt post-flop with this dynamic.

I guess I might agree with the above if "nitty thinking Reg" = OMC. However, they don't seem the same to me.

In addition, you're also assuming that a "nitty, thinking Reg" will never be scared enough to fold 99-QQ when Hero could presumably have either Kx or flopped trips that he decided to slowplay on the flop.

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08-19-2015 , 04:06 AM

#27

kookiemonster

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,652

Fold flop vs a nit.

Against an ABC TAG (lots where I play), barreling the **** out of the turn and river mints money.

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08-19-2015 , 10:18 AM

#28

SwolyswoND

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChesspain

Hero flatted PF and called the flop. Who says that the K has to hit his range in order for him to be value-betting?

V will not likely perceive Hero to valuebet anything lower than Kx here. A bet therefore reps basically only Kx, 5x, or a flopped boat. Not exactly wide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Parker

Two separate questions:

1. Why can't H rep AK or even KQ?

2. Do you think it matters that H doesn't rep Kx?

For V to check 99-QQ, there is gotta be expectation that he's either behind or he could induce a bluff somehow.

1) Given PF action, Hero can't rep AK. Even if AK is in Hero's PF flatting range, V is unlikely to perceive it as such. V would also have to perceive that AK is not only in Hero's PF flatting range, but that Hero is capable of floating flop with it. The combination of these makes it extremely unlikely that Hero can rep AK. KQ is more likely to be in Hero's PF flat range, but less likely in his float range.

2) I most certainly do. When V checks 99-QQ here, or even Kx, it's not necessarily because he thinks he's behind or can induce a bluff; V may also correctly deduce that most of Hero's flop flatting range that still trails V (so removing 5x, boats) cannot call V's turn value bet.

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08-19-2015 , 11:40 AM

#29

Richard Parker

banned

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 13,949

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwolyswoND

1) Given PF action, Hero can't rep AK. Even if AK is in Hero's PF flatting range, V is unlikely to perceive it as such.

Players in your pool don't flat $20 open with AK?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwolyswoND

V would also have to perceive that AK is not only in Hero's PF flatting range, but that Hero is capable of floating flop with it.

Harder sell, but it just has to be in H's range.

What exactly is H's calling range on the flop that would fire on turn when K hits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwolyswoND

2) I most certainly do. When V checks 99-QQ here, or even Kx, it's not necessarily because he thinks he's behind or can induce a bluff; V may also correctly deduce that most of Hero's flop flatting range that still trails V (so removing 5x, boats) cannot call V's turn value bet.

If he's thinking value, then he would be expecting H to check behind, not bet.

So when H barrels turn and river, what would V be thinking?

Quote

08-19-2015 , 11:47 AM

#30

SwolyswoND

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Parker

Players in your pool don't flat $20 open with AK?

Some, perhaps half and half. More importantly, it seems the general perception is that a player is unwilling to assume another player wont 3bet AK preflop until they see that player do it.

Harder sell, but it just has to be in H's range.

What exactly is H's calling range on the flop that would fire on turn when K hits?

I agree it should be in H's range. But the inquiry is whether V will perceive it to be in H's range. I don't think many LLSNL Vs will think H floats AK on this flop with 2 players to act behind H.

H's flop calling range that fires on a K turn is polarized to 5x, flopped boat, or air. That's why I see it being a problem betting it with 88.

If he's thinking value, then he would be expecting H to check behind, not bet.

So when H barrels turn and river, what would V be thinking?

That Hero is polarized, and given action to that point, H's range is comprised of more relative air than relative value hands versus V's range. I expect H to get looked up quite often.

Responses in red above.

Quote

08-19-2015 , 11:53 AM

#31

Richard Parker

banned

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 13,949

You're making it difficult to quote.

Quote:

H's flop calling range that fires on a K turn is polarized to 5x, flopped boat, or air. That's why I see it being a problem betting it with 88.

What would be H's air?

Add few combos of Kx in H's perceived range, and it no longer makes sense for V to call down.

Quote:

That Hero is polarized, and given action to that point, H's range is comprised of more relative air than relative value hands versus V's range. I expect H to get looked up quite often.

78? 34? A6x?

I can't rationalize how typical, especially nitty, V can see us holding that he can beat.

Quote

08-19-2015 , 12:04 PM

#32

SwolyswoND

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,976

I think you answered your own question, right?

Hero's relative air (compared to V's range) is missed straight draws, sticky 6x, and our exact holding.

IMO, most V are going to think "how could he have Kx here? his line makes no sense unless its 5x, 66, or missed SD. however, since his range is polarized, it makes no sense to bloat the pot with my one pair. time to go into c/c mode with my 99+"

Quote

08-19-2015 , 12:14 PM

#33

Richard Parker

banned

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 13,949

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwolyswoND

I think you answered your own question, right?

Hero's relative air (compared to V's range) is missed straight draws, sticky 6x, and our exact holding.

Not really. I listed out those busted straight draw hands simply because they fit the description.

If H's labeling V as tight reg, I am sure H had demonstrated his general response to V as a tight player in other instances.

I do not think any busted draw is likely in H's perceived range. Unless V thinks of H as a total fish, he's unlikely going to put H on a busted straight draw.

Same mindset, only 6x are A6s, and there are only 3 combos of that. And if A6s is in H's range, so are A5s.

Then there are 3 combos of 55.

More about this in next part...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwolyswoND

IMO, most V are going to think "how could he have Kx here? his line makes no sense unless its 5x, 66, or missed SD. however, since his range is polarized, it makes no sense to bloat the pot with my one pair. time to go into c/c mode with my 99+"

How many in the pool is going to turn A6 into bluff and double barrel turn and river?

So realistically, there are very few air in H's range if any, and only hands that V beat with 99 - QQ are simply smaller PP.

Add few more perceived combos of Kx in there, V will have tough time calling double barrel.

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