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2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? 2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here?

04-19-2014 , 11:20 AM
I know folding KK pre is usually ridiculous but I feel like this may be one of 2 or 3 situations where its not horrible. I don't think is 5 bet range is too wide. Let me know what you think.

Hero - White, Mid 20's, semi-professional, LAG-ish. Felt like I was, along with Villain, the best player at the table. Wearing a hoodie and a hat. I had showed that I had 3 bet AQ the previous hand and won the pot.

Villain - Early 20's, very TAG. Played with him once before 8 months ago (doubt he remembers) and I have never seen him mess around. He is directly to my left and as disadvantageous as this position is, the table was too easy to leave and no seats were opening up.

Stacks: Villain: $750, Hero: Covers.

Hero opens for $25 UTG with KK, Villain 3 bets to 90 UTG+1, folds back to hero. Hero 4 bets to $205 after 30 seconds. Villain 5 bet jams for $750 after another 30 seconds. Hero...?
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 11:25 AM
Yeah, I can probably let KK go 150bb deep vs a solid players 5 bet jam.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 11:39 AM
In favor of folding: You and villain's position. The UTG open is super strong and his 3-betting from UTG+1 should be stronger than if he was 3-betting the button.

In favor of calling: Your "LAG-ish" image and the fact that you recently showed you 3-bet AQ. It's not terribly informative that you 3-bet AQ, but I guess it shows you don't have a ridiculously nitty 3-bet range of KK+,AK.

Overall, I'd say the position of you and villain is the strongest factor, so I'd fold.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 11:55 AM
just call the 3bet
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:25 PM
I dunno, if I were the TAG villain and I'm up against a LAG I'm never really afraid of getting in AK/QQ vs. them. If villain had posted his version of the thread with AK or QQ I don't think he'd get very many fold responses.

Sometimes you get to a point where players will start overplaying their hands vs. the "table bully" or the "most aggro guy at the table". If they see you in there 3-betting with hands like AQ/AT/88, why wouldn't they think QQ is good vs. you?
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmay28
just call the 3bet
Definitely this, 4 bet even as small as it is folds out most of the hands you crush and it seems like you didn't even think about what you were gonna do if he 5bet.

If 4 bet id like to something like $300ish so he thinks he has no fold equity and if he 5
Bet ships in that spot then you can easily fold imo. As played just depends how often if ever he has QQ here. Id probably just fold given your description
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 12:49 PM
Grunch: No. Never folding KK pre for 150BBs if V isn't a known uber-nit.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArsenalGunners2
Definitely this, 4 bet even as small as it is folds out most of the hands you crush and it seems like you didn't even think about what you were gonna do if he 5bet.

If 4 bet id like to something like $300ish so he thinks he has no fold equity and if he 5
Bet ships in that spot then you can easily fold imo. As played just depends how often if ever he has QQ here. Id probably just fold given your description
I hate flatting 3 bets out of position, but this make sense. You are absolutely right, I tried to induce, but once he did I did not have a plan B. I think he has QQ/AK here about 1% of the time
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 02:11 PM
This is a situation where you shouldn't mind flatting a 3bet. The shorter the stacks, the less position matters. In this case on the flop, the SPR is going to be under 4. Unless an ace appears, you can't get out of this cheap. You're likely stacking off. As such, your goal is to make sure that the villain's range is as wide as possible. 4betting is just going to narrow his range.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 10:59 PM
Are you 4betting for value or as a bluff?

What sort of range do you expect villain to call your 4bet with?
What sort of range do you expect villain to 5bet with?

When you answer both of those questions you will likely have your answer as to what you should do here.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-19-2014 , 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
Are you 4betting for value or as a bluff?

What sort of range do you expect villain to call your 4bet with?
What sort of range do you expect villain to 5bet with?

When you answer both of those questions you will likely have your answer as to what you should do here.
^^ Exactly.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-20-2014 , 12:09 AM
4b to $250 and call it off. 200bb is about the minimum I would fold pre unless V is super tight and would only get it in with AA
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-20-2014 , 01:29 AM
The 30 second pause is interesting. I'm assuming no body language, but sometimes you can get impression if spontaneous or deliberate, which will push you to your decision.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-20-2014 , 01:34 AM
Any reason to believe he's getting tilty or impatient?
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-20-2014 , 07:41 AM
If your favoring of 4 bet folding kings to this player then flat the 3 bet and play post flop
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote
04-20-2014 , 08:08 AM
Hmm...I think it's close. If you are truly lagging it up, and you are wearing a hoodie, then I think you need to call it off. You also describe V as competent/semi-competent. A competent villain should flat your 4-bet, especially in position, and trap with his aces. Point being, that he's either not very competent, or he doesn't have AA.
2-5 Should I fold KK Preflop here? Quote

      
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