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[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river [2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river

02-15-2018 , 03:37 AM
You said you opened from LP so I'm going to assume CO open.

TL;DR
-checking back river is bad and everyone who suggested it should feel bad
-river sizing needs to be smaller
-fold as played

wtf are you people talking about xb river? That's results orientated nonsense. It's a standard vbet not a standard check back like seriously... The only mistake is the way too large river sizing. The sizing on the river should be a lot smaller though; I'd bet half pot in this exact spot.

This is a slam dunk value bet on the river. For one thing, we are hardly ever getting raised as the only straights BB has are T8ss and KTss (maybe KThh) and those are gonna raise turn and 3bet preflop at some freq as well. He very unlikely has many sets as once again I think those are gonna raise the flop and turn a very decent % of the time. We have all the sets except 99, most of KTo (at least ones with a spade/heart), KThh, T8hh, T8ss, along with QJo/Q9s. Another thing, we can get called by worse! (but not with this large sizing...)

FWIW If I had a choice between betting this large sizing or checking AsQx back... it would be close and I might x/b

Also, we have the As! which means he can't have NF draws which makes it much more likely has a weak showdown value hand like 9xss, Jxss, or worse Qx. This is another reason we don't want to size so big... we want those type of weak 1 pair hands to have a really tough decision.

Once he raises the river this is a fold I believe

1. Your removal isn't great. Axss are types of hands he might bluff raise the river with. The Q is ok because it blocks QJ and Q9 but one might argue he might not even want to raise Q9 otr and he might be likely to x/r QJ ott.

2. He's very likely unbluffing this spot otr He has to be a little creative to find river bluffs. TT is an obvious choice (but that's gonna be 3bet a super high frequency, or at least it should, BB vs CO) and then what? He'd have to be x/raising bricked flush draws almost exclusively (45s as well I suppose). Or turning a hand like 88,77, 6x, into a bluff. Also, exploitatively, his sizing screams value, and exploitatively spots where villains are repping thin for value and thin for bluffs it's almost always value.

3. Exploitatively, after your huge river sizing villain is much less likely to bluff raise.

The only thing that sucks is the great price we're getting. He's risking $500 to win $420 so we should be defending something like ~42% of our range (math?). However, I think we can very comfortably overfold this spot and I don't even know if AsQx is overfolding because of the removal effects. You'd MUCH rather call QxTs/KsQx/KsKx/AA no spade/AQ no spade etc etc and then we have lots of sets straights and 2 pairs to call as well.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 03:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND
Hero is not polarized in this river spot, so we shouldn't be betting as if we were.
Ever river bet you make is polarized between bluffs and value hands. I think what you meant is that we're not 'polarized' between an exclusively nutted distribution and pure air type bluffs, which is correct. But I guess that's just semantics
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 09:15 AM
Grunch

This is super fishy. There are like 4 hands that he beats you that make sense. He probably has more busted spades than value combos

If we didn't have the A♠️ I think it's a pretty easy call. I still probably call, but I'm less happy about it
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
Ever river bet you make is polarized between bluffs and value hands. I think what you meant is that we're not 'polarized' between an exclusively nutted distribution and pure air type bluffs, which is correct. But I guess that's just semantics
Well yes, when we use the term "polarized" in these forums it means either having nuts or air. Every bet in poker on any street is technically "polarized" between bluffs and value, but value is relative.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 10:26 AM
Garick implies fold and his opinion has to be respected but the title of your post is
" I just keep getting raised on the river "
Are you aware of your table image?
Do you have a tendency to fold a lot to river raises?
If yes,are villains aware of this tendency?
Did you try to put villain on any hand range the way the hand player out?
Seems to me he could have easily been on a spade draw and is now trying to steal the pot.
I think, sometimes you just have to call in these borderline situations, even if your behind, just to deter villains in future from playing back at you.
Assuming that is, that you're dealing with somewhat competent, thinking players.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND
Well yes, when we use the term "polarized" in these forums it means either having nuts or air. Every bet in poker on any street is technically "polarized" between bluffs and value, but value is relative.
This is really off topic. Sorry

Bets on streets besides the river are almost never truly polar because your "bluffs" will have equity and you will be focusing on denying equity with the majority of your "value hands" more than anything else. So it's not really useful to classify any action besides the river as a bluff or value bet.

Co vs BB If you cbet 88 on J73 after pfr and BB call, EV wise it's better with 88 to see a fold than a call, even though we are ahead of his overall range, and we can easily be called by worse. So if we are hoping for him to fold wasn't that a bluff? But we are ahead of his range and get called by worse, so wasn't that a value bet?

Only the river has pure value bets and bluffs; it's not that useful on other streets.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 04:22 PM
OP - I haven’t read responses but if you’re displeased with how often you’re getting raised on the river work on having stronger hands when you get there. Seriously. Tighten up, play from ahead and you’ll be more comfortable. Once you get your confidence back you can widen your range / style more. Simple but effective.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote
02-15-2018 , 11:29 PM
Mmmm, I think what I need to do is stop betting river super thin versus people who I don't have a snap fold against if they raise. If I see enough better hands in thosoe spots, I can keep doing it. Versus 70% of the 2/5 population, thin river bets are $$$.

If you're playing against someone who won't bluff raise you, think about betting 1/5th pot instead of checking the river. This can easily add 2-3bb/hr to your winrate, especially as you get a feel for when you can size it up.

Also lets you occassionally steal a pot OTR for a tiny bet, because people are sick of getting thin valued vs you.
[2/5] Seriously I just keep getting raised on the river Quote

      
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