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Old 03-08-2017, 11:33 AM   #1
D_Lonnigan
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2/5 Second nuts Deep

Live 1/2 game. Stacks are deep.

Hero: $1300
Villain 1: $2200
Villain 2: $750

Hero: A4

UTG raises $6, fold, fold, Hero raises $20, Villain 1 calls $20, CO calls $20, Villain 2 calls $20, fold, fold UTG calls $14.

Flop ($103): 325

UTG checks, Hero bets $50, Villain 1 calls $50, fold, Villain 2 raises $215, Hero calls $215, Villain 1 bets all in $$2000, Villain 2 calls all in $515, HERO ?
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:36 AM   #2
Javanewt
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Any reads? Unless someone is the tightest player you know, you can never fold. Heck, even if they are tight, you can never fold.

If you lost to 64, move to BBV -- maybe do that anyway.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:53 AM   #3
browni3141
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Snapping. When I 3-bet A4s and flop a straight like this I'm just never folding. If he cold called our 3-bet and got a miracle flop good for him.

Everyone is putting you on an overpair here when you 3-bet preflop. You have a well disguised nutted hand when your perceived range is capped.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:56 AM   #4
Dream Machine
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

We have to call and pray that villain 1 has a set and villain 2 went crazy with an over pair such as J-J or 10-10 since he didn't 4 bet pre.

Straight over set over set would be sick. 4-6s sounds like a pretty loose call even for being as deep as you are. But the table seems loose aggressive based on this action so 4-6s isn't impossible. Reads on villain 1 and villain 2 would be helpful.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:02 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Snapping. When I 3-bet A4s and flop a straight like this I'm just never folding. If he cold called our 3-bet and got a miracle flop good for him.

Everyone is putting you on an overpair here when you 3-bet preflop. You have a well disguised nutted hand when your perceived range is capped.
+1

You can't ever range 6/4 here, and the road to a flush is almost non existent. I don't know how loose the players here are, but either villian calling a 3-bet here with 4-6 OoP is absurd. If they decided to gamble and got absurdly lucky, you were going to lose that money anyway.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:02 PM   #6
D_Lonnigan
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Reads: V1 is loose, rec player, calling station, very spewey
V2 is solid, tight, older guy,

I put V2 on a set, and V1 I am just not sure. I mean, he is so bad he could have 65 here with a pair and a straight draw. Or 2 pair. He is that bad.

I paused and thought about it a while. I mean jamming $2k is a lot. But with the second nuts and a blocker I just can't see folding.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:06 PM   #7
wj94
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

3b A4, flop straight on rainbow board, fold cuz it's not the nuts. Hmmmmm.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:07 PM   #8
Dubey
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

I mean, if he can have 65 here then it's a snap. He can clearly have 64 here too if he is that loose, but he can probably also have 53s, 52s, 23s, 55, 33, 22 etc.. and those are all the nuts in his eyes.

It's never a fold. It's a cooler if he has 64, don't lose any sleep over it.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:12 PM   #9
D_Lonnigan
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
3b A4, flop straight on rainbow board, fold cuz it's not the nuts. Hmmmmm.
I'm not advocating a fold. I am just asking if this is a slam dunk call off of 500+ bbs.

As far as the 3b, I had 2 tight players behind me, 1 loose player (V1). I am trying to get it heads up with a loose and passive UTG player. This also protects my pf 3b range. I didn't expect the whole god damn table to call my 3b pre.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:16 PM   #10
Nippleman
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by D_Lonnigan View Post
Reads: V1 is loose, rec player, calling station, very spewey
V2 is solid, tight, older guy,

I put V2 on a set, and V1 I am just not sure. I mean, he is so bad he could have 65 here with a pair and a straight draw. Or 2 pair. He is that bad.

I paused and thought about it a while. I mean jamming $2k is a lot. But with the second nuts and a blocker I just can't see folding.
Based on the pre-flop, I would put V1 on the set. Calling a 3bet in midposition with 6-4 doesn't strike me as a great play from his end. He needs a very specific runout to be good, and most flops that graze him still have awful showdown value. His call behind and reraise after V2 reads more like he has the set, was going to just call and let you bet the turn, but then someone else is clearly wet so he jammed. V2 likely has a bluff/semi-bluff or an overpair.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:16 PM   #11
wj94
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by D_Lonnigan View Post
I'm not advocating a fold. I am just asking if this is a slam dunk call off of 500+ bbs.

As far as the 3b, I had 2 tight players behind me, 1 loose player (V1). I am trying to get it heads up with a loose and passive UTG player. This also protects my pf 3b range. I didn't expect the whole god damn table to call my 3b pre.
3b larger then, $20 is basically a pot sweetner this deep. Also title says 2/5, post says 1/2
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:24 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

call. even a dumb player isn't dumb enough to fold out the field with the nuts deep with no FD's otf. People don't usually call 3bets with 64.

I'm assuming it's 1/2 since UTG raised to 6? Not 2/5 like the title said

also looks like you're early and you 3bet an UTG raise with a piece of dog crap but it is what it is. I don't see any reads saying he opens extremely wide from UTG.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:27 PM   #13
D_Lonnigan
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Sorry. It's 1-2
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:33 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

This was my logic also. Especially knowing that V2 is tight and perhaps passive since he's old. He could have flatted pre with a big pair (Jacks through Aces). He might have gotten stubborn with an overpair. Tight/passive players realize they only play few hands so they feel like they deserve to get paid when they do play premium hands. Plus he was getting 2:1 to call off the rest of his stack. Still hard to imagine a solid/tight player stacking off that many BB's with just an overpair though.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:33 PM   #15
Nippleman
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

It's a slam dunk with the 2nd nuts. There is never a hero fold here, even if you were OoP. I understand the hesitation with an all-in and a call behind, but you have the best hand most of the time. My guess for the show off points are A-5 spades, an over pair of at least Js or better.

Quote:
Still hard to imagine a solid/tight player stacking off that many BB's with just an overpair though.
If it's Qs up, he probably thinks someone was firing a bluff, and someone else either has a weird hand like A-5 or a potential straight draw. If I have a hand like Aces there, I probably jam it all in two with top overpair + straight draw. There also are not a lot of 2pair combos I am thinking play post flop with the action given.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:39 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

As always, its impossible to know without an idea of the game dynamics no matter how small, e.g. area there a lot of drinking, are people raising to $20 pre, etc.

If this isn't the case, if the game isn't that crazy, everyone is playing relatively straight-forward, I would actually lay this down facing a 650BB jam after you bet, get called, get raised, you call, and get back-raised all-in for $1300 in a $1/$2.

Yes it seems absurdly tight but as a question: at what effective stack size would you let this go?
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:48 PM   #17
Nippleman
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by acidhauss View Post
As always, its impossible to know without an idea of the game dynamics no matter how small, e.g. area there a lot of drinking, are people raising to $20 pre, etc.

If this isn't the case, if the game isn't that crazy, everyone is playing relatively straight-forward, I would actually lay this down facing a 650BB jam after you bet, get called, get raised, you call, and get back-raised all-in for $1300 in a $1/$2.

Yes it seems absurdly tight but as a question: at what effective stack size would you let this go?
You have the 2nd nuts. There is a difference between tight and ridiculous, especially when a lot of hands you crush right now aren't out of calling range.
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:03 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
You have the 2nd nuts. There is a difference between tight and ridiculous, especially when a lot of hands you crush right now aren't out of calling range.
The odds are a bit better than I thought (for some reason I thought we were $2k effective).

Even so, its a lot of money for $1/$2. (600BB!) I also don't see people flatting a flop bet, then back-raising over a ship for $1300 over a $200 bet OTF but thats just me.

Regardless, as I said before its impossible to give an answer without an understanding of the table, if splashy how splashy etc. On a splashy table, then sure I'd call.
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:08 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

V1 should never put H on A4, so he would do this with two pair, set, maybe a straight draw, etc. If he has 46 in his range, he has all of those. He might have AA, although unlikely. You should pretty much never be folding here.

If all else fails, we bink spades!
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:31 PM   #20
Dizzyqtp
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

yeah, don't fold this
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:55 PM   #21
Redskins 47
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

It's tough to narrow ranges when the 3 bet is so small.
$20 becomes the standard open in some of the $1-2 games I play when certain action players are at the table and once they leave we are back to $12-15. If you want to thin the field and narrow ranges a bit 3 bet an $8 open to $32 at least.

I'm snapping this off and hoping im up against two sets or a set and an overpair. 64ss and even 64os is much more likely than people think though.. this is live $1-2 no limit after all.. and I wouldn't be shocked to see one of them have it.. we could be chopping as well vs one of them.

Last edited by Redskins 47; 03-08-2017 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:07 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
+1

You can't ever range 6/4 here, and the road to a flush is almost non existent. I don't know how loose the players here are, but either villian calling a 3-bet here with 4-6 OoP is absurd. If they decided to gamble and got absurdly lucky, you were going to lose that money anyway.
It's absurd sure but live 1-2 no limit is absurd and V1 has been described as a horrible loose rec. Still never folding but wouldn't be shocked or dismayed to see 64 here. Again, the 3 bet is hardly a 3 bet. Not even 3x the open.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:25 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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It's absurd sure but live 1-2 no limit is absurd and V1 has been described as a horrible loose rec. Still never folding but wouldn't be shocked or dismayed to see 64 here. Again, the 3 bet is hardly a 3 bet. Not even 3x the open.
Even calling a 3 bet in a mid position? That's where I am at I suppose. V2 is more likely to have it due to position, but that is still insane.

It's unfortunate if someone out straights you. They made a terrible call and got insanely lucky. I can't ever advocate folding second nut straight with no paired board and no immediate flush draw. Backdoor flush for the win, or a 6 gives you chopped pot if that's the case.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:28 PM   #24
Javanewt
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

Oh, yeah, we have one of the 4s, which limits him further. Wasn't even thinking about that. Even more reason to call -- not that you needed one.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:36 PM   #25
Redskins 47
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Re: 2/5 Second nuts Deep

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Originally Posted by Nippleman View Post
Even calling a 3 bet in a mid position? That's where I am at I suppose. V2 is more likely to have it due to position, but that is still insane.

It's unfortunate if someone out straights you. They made a terrible call and got insanely lucky. I can't ever advocate folding second nut straight with no paired board and no immediate flush draw. Backdoor flush for the win, or a 6 gives you chopped pot if that's the case.
Most rec fish don't know what middle position is. Again I'm calling and quickly but to rule out 64 suited or even 64os because it doesn't make sense to you (a thinking player I assume since you're on this forum) is stupid. We can't assume that because we wouldn't call a tiny 3 bet in mp with 64 that a brain dead rec fish wouldn't.
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