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Old 09-17-2014, 10:09 AM   #1
PoppaLarge
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2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I played this terribly. I mean, I sucked at poker in this one. Total idiot. Some of you were probably there. This is almost a BBV-type post but I'm looking for opinions as played on flop and turn. Thoughts?

2/5. Hero is sitting about 220 BB.
V1: super-tight OMC type, have never seen him raise. About 100BB.
V2: grouchy middle-eastern guy, aggressive, have seem him call raises with some marginal hands. Also roughly 80-100BB.
V3: new to the table, younger dude, "internet kid," 100BB.

V1 opens with a raise to $25. V2 calls. Hero on the button with JT. Fairly certain V3 is also calling, so I call. V3 calls.

Flop comes J72 2 suits (can't remember which). V1 bets $65. V2 calls. Hero calls. V3 calls.

Turn comes another J. V1 bets out $125. V2 flat calls again. Hero?

Spoiler:
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:34 AM   #2
Playbig2000
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

fold pre dude
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:48 AM   #3
wewa925
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Fold pre to V1's open. I won't comment on the hand itself. Is V1 sticky enough to shove AA or KK into two other players otr? I'm guessing V3 had quad 2s.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:54 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
fold pre dude
Like I say, I sucked at poker with this one, but is there a case for calling in position with JT pre at 3:1?
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:54 AM   #5
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

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Originally Posted by wewa925 View Post
Fold pre to V1's open. I won't comment on the hand itself. Is V1 sticky enough to shove AA or KK into two other players otr? I'm guessing V3 had quad 2s.
We are 100bb's deep against an old man that we have never seen raise. JT goes straight to the muck for me.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:57 AM   #6
PoppaLarge
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

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Originally Posted by Fish Taco View Post
We are 100bb's deep against an old man that we have never seen raise. JT goes straight to the muck for me.
I 100% agree, and without that error, I don't end up in a marginal situation.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:30 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

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Originally Posted by PoppaLarge View Post
Like I say, I sucked at poker with this one, but is there a case for calling in position with JT pre at 3:1?
It's not that good against an OMC EP opening range. You have to think about how you're making money calling against his range. How often are you outflopping him? And when you do, is he putting in more money?

Against a super tight range of QQ+/AKs you only outflop him 8.62% of the time. And some of that is when your JT makes a pair and he holds AK and doesn't make a pair. Do you make any money post-flop in that situation? What about when your J or T make a pair and he still has an overpair? Are you spewing off money in that situation?

Basically it's too hard to play this hand "for value" against an OMC type range with 100BB or less. You have to add in some player exploitation to make it profitable.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:35 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Grunch.

Is your hand suited? If not the pre-flop call is pretty marginal against OMC's opening range at 100BB stacks. What makes you fairly certain that V3 is calling as well? OMC raise pre-flop and then cbet into 3 players? And got called? I fold. But I would fold this hand pre-flop so that I wouldn't be in this spot I think. Another jack hits the turn and he is still betting into 3 players? Something is fishy here... Either he isn't as tight pre-flop as you think and has Jx in his range (and probably has a J)... or he just doesn't know what to do with his AA and KK now so he keeps betting. I honestly try to avoid these "I've got top pair but have no clue what's going on" type spots like the plague, mostly by folding pre-flop when I hold a likely dominated hand. Basically the stars have to align for you to have the best hand here. I would probably fold turn.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:39 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Uh...

V1 has LOL bad played AA? V2 has 77? V3 has Jx?

or...

V1 has AJs, V2 has 77, and V3 has 22?

Lol I don't really get what these guys are playing when there aren't enough jacks in the deck. Either this is just a super set-up hand that everyone slow played or someone is playing something that they shouldn't be.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:52 PM   #10
CallMeVernon
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I know everyone is caught up in telling you to fold pre, but honestly, you can let this hand go at any time before the river. Folding on the flop or the turn would not be bad.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:56 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Did someone have J7?
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:01 PM   #12
AltronIV
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Who's got 7-2? I'm guessing the "internet kid."
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:51 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

pre is fine. JT is a strong drawing hand.

but for the love of God........FOLD the flop when OMC leads out. I cannot fathom how you can justify calling that flop.

anyway....

OMC -- AA
V2 -- 77
V3 -- 22
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Old 09-17-2014, 07:16 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I haven't hit the spoiler yet. I don't mind a puke fold on the turn. Try coming up with hand combinations for the entire field that you beat here, it's really not easy.

If you have to puke and then fold, then puke and then fold; but be sure to do the second part here and expect to get shown bigger Jxs and Boats. Then you can smile through the puking.
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Old 09-17-2014, 07:22 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Not sure about the preflop call. If it was heads up it would be bad no matter what, but since it's going multiway it might be okay...but I'm still not sure because the stacks are shallow. In any case, we are hoping to flop gin.

We didn't, so I'm snap folding this flop. No idea why you called it actually. I suppose you think that the OMC is cbetting into 3 players with AK?

Anyway the turn J is great for us because it puts us ahead of the OMC. Now we just have to worry about the other players. We still have to worry about trips over trips so I'm not raising, but I'm calling to see what develops on the river.

Obv not folding the river ever. If someone has quads or J7 then that's just lol.
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Old 09-17-2014, 07:27 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Gonna go outside the box since the AA,77,22 theory has already been taken.

I'm gonna give the internet kid (Vil 3) J 7 here on a wim
That will leave an A2(nfd otf) for Vil 2
Vil 1 will then have to I guess still have AA bc he can't have anything else beside AA, 77, 22 and the other ones are less likely. GL everybody
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:13 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I can live with a call pre if JT is suited - multiway pot with the button. But we're not playing for top pair. As for pot odds preflop, forget about them - think more about SPR. The callers give you better pot odds but also remove manuverability postflop (like playing a draw fast counting on some fold equity, for example).

The way postflop went, I think we can fold flop since villain made a pretty big bet in absolute terms, and the first flat looks like it could be ahead of us as well. As I said, we weren't playing for TPNK.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:19 AM   #18
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

fold pre 110% of the time. Print money. EZ game. Don't feed nits
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:43 AM   #19
PoppaLarge
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I think the PF call isn't the worst, definitely marginal, it's not something I would do all the time.

Whoever said I'm not looking for top pair calling with JT is absolutely right. I think the flop call was my truly grievous error.

TBH, when V2 flat-called the turn I almost mucked, the worst hand I'm up against is a J with a better kicker.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:11 AM   #20
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

I know that pre is definitely not what I would do but once we are to the flop I don't see how this is so ridiculous...I mean, yeah you are probably beat on the flop but there is a good chance if this guy is tight enough that we can take it away on a later street or he is C-betting 10's or AK. There are 3 people in the pot so it isn't out of the question.

I can say for certain that we are not good if he bets again, even with 3 jacks. I would just fold.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:23 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
pre is fine. JT is a strong drawing hand.

but for the love of God........FOLD the flop when OMC leads out. I cannot fathom how you can justify calling that flop.

anyway....

OMC -- AA
V2 -- 77
V3 -- 22
I never actually found out whether or not our hand is suited or not, but TBH I don't really even like calling pre-flop if we likely just have to fold to one bet when we make top pair. Fold pre IMO.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:29 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

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Originally Posted by DavinciChode View Post
I know that pre is definitely not what I would do but once we are to the flop I don't see how this is so ridiculous...I mean, yeah you are probably beat on the flop but there is a good chance if this guy is tight enough that we can take it away on a later street or he is C-betting 10's or AK. There are 3 people in the pot so it isn't out of the question.

I can say for certain that we are not good if he bets again, even with 3 jacks. I would just fold.
Please don't call here with the intention of "taking it away on a later street". This guy's range is not a rage that we are going to get a lot of folds from. Turing our top pair into a bluff here is going to be a spew. Also, the fact that there are three other players in this hand is a reason to rely more on the strength of our hand to win the pot rather than some crazy bluff. If we call the flop in this spot it's because we think we are ahead of his range, not because we have a few outs are are planning a big bluff IMO.
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Old 09-18-2014, 02:44 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

PF is not the worst call. It's less bad if it's suited. We can make it profitable with the loose/passive fish typically found at these stakes. The IO are through the roof usually. We just have to realize that TP or 2nd pair is going to have virtually 0 showdown value vs OMC's opening and c-betting range. That said, the flop is a fold, without question. We need some good equity on the flop to continue, which we do not. I find an easy fold and don't even think about it twice.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:10 PM   #24
Playbig2000
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Re: 2/5 Ridiculous hand with JT on button.

regarding pf we have an OMC in early position (possibly UTG) who is described as "super tight, never saw him raise" who open raised to 25... So what are we ranging him on, at the very min. JJ, QQ, KK or AA (and maybe AK).

Againt that range we're smoked.
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