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Old 03-12-2019, 06:47 PM   #26
momo_uk
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

Seriously, why does everyone want to bet flop in a 3b pot and risk getting xraised????
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:50 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

You can’t profitably play this game being worried about someone flopping the stone cold nuts every hand is the point people are making.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:02 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Seriously, why does everyone want to bet flop in a 3b pot and risk getting xraised????
this is almost the definition of a hand you want to bet OTF

1) you have a range advantage ("betting lead") and have a big piece of the board (FD)
2) this is a good flop to c-bet, unconnected and A high, relatively small portion of their range hits
3) you have the a hand that wants to deny equity as our hand is vulnerable to random hands like KQ pairing a Q and realizing their equity, or even some 77 type hands that are nearly flips against us
4) very few hands will x/r against you given the board and your range advantage (you have the most AA, AK, AQ). Even if they do, we have robust equity against them so the hand plays itself
5) if called, the pot can get bigger and we can realize our robust equity and win a big pot
6) better hands fold, like JJ
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:18 PM   #29
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2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by fishsoup View Post
this is almost the definition of a hand you want to bet OTF



1) you have a range advantage ("betting lead") and have a big piece of the board (FD)

2) this is a good flop to c-bet, unconnected and A high, relatively small portion of their range hits

3) you have the a hand that wants to deny equity as our hand is vulnerable to random hands like KQ pairing a Q and realizing their equity, or even some 77 type hands that are nearly flips against us

4) very few hands will x/r against you given the board and your range advantage (you have the most AA, AK, AQ). Even if they do, we have robust equity against them so the hand plays itself

5) if called, the pot can get bigger and we can realize our robust equity and win a big pot

6) better hands fold, like JJ


Betting lead? Are you and everyone else in the thread advocating betting flop missing the fact that BB 3bet pre? If he hadnít, I would 100% cbet.

He was a drooler and could easily be playing some stupid Ace or even AA this way. And he may not even fold something like KK-JJ to the flop bet.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:25 PM   #30
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Betting lead? Are you and everyone else in the thread advocating betting flop missing the fact that BB 3bet pre? If he hadn’t, I would 100% cbet.

He was a drooler and could easily be playing some stupid Ace or even AA this way. And he may not even fold something like KK-JJ to the flop bet.
Dude, I hate to say this but your game is a train wreck. If you would open your mind and listen, you might actually get better.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:31 PM   #31
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
I know, right? Why am I like this?
Here is how I combat this type of thinking:

Anytime you think a value raise is too thin because they are never calling, ask yourself if you would bluff in this spot. If you wouldn’t bluff because you think they are never folding, then go ahead and value raise.

Same goes for bluffing. If you have air and are confident the guy has something like third pair on the river but you are worried he is never folding, ask yourself if you would value bet second pair.

This is admittedly overly simplistic for a few reasons (eg blockers, we don’t want to raise for value or bluff vs nutted ranges, sometimes we want to trap etc) but it’s a useful thought exercise

Last edited by Badreg2017; 03-12-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:32 PM   #32
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2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Dude, I hate to say this but your game is a train wreck. If you would open your mind and listen, you might actually get better.

Iím all ears to listen, but I canít stop myself from questioning and re-questioning when I donít agree with something. Itís how I believe I can get better.

Just saying ďokay, next time Iíll bet here because 2p2 said soĒ doesnít work for me if Iím not convinced with the reasoning.

In this case, I got 3b preflop, yet someone said that I have the betting lead on flop. Can you explain whatís up with that?

This is NOT a cbet. I am NOT the preflop aggressor here.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:41 PM   #33
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
Here is how I combat this type of thinking:

Anytime you think a value raise is too thin because they are never calling, ask yourself if you would bluff in this spot. If you wouldnít bluff because you think they are never folding, then go ahead and value raise.

Same goes for bluffing. If you have air and are confident the guy has something like third pair on the river but you are worried he is never folding, ask yourself if you would value bet second pair.

This is admittedly overly simplistic for a few reasons (eg blockers and we donít want to raise for value or bluff vs nutted ranges) but itís a useful thought exercise


I know what youíre saying... but this is sooo hard to implement in real time... because it seems that whenever I flip a coin and decide to bluff brainlessly in these spots, they tend to call.. and when I raise for value, they tend to fold... obv very contradictory and makes no sense but this is how I feel.. which is why, I donít bluff at all in these spots mostly
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:55 PM   #34
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

We all have room to improve and make better decisions but as I said in another one of your threads: “don’t neglect the role of variance”. I’ll have a week where everytime I bet for value they fold and everytime I bluff they call; I’ll wonder if I’m a huge tellbox or something. Then the next week all my bluffs get through and all my value bets get called.

Variance can be huge, sometimes you just happen to run into the top of their ranges with your bluffs and the bottom of their range with your value. That doesn’t mean you are playing bad everytime you get a bad outcome. I’m not saying to not think critically and evaluate your play, but don’t beat yourself up so much.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:56 PM   #35
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

Raising ott seems best. What is so bad about a flop check in a weird mw min 3! pot? Checking otf seems good to me.

As you already are, take a lot of the pseudo strat itt with a grain of salt.

Last edited by 7weeks2days; 03-12-2019 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:05 PM   #36
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

its a good value bet the shorty might call with a draw you want him in on for a chance at a big pot.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:43 PM   #37
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Betting lead? Are you and everyone else in the thread advocating betting flop missing the fact that BB 3bet pre? If he hadn’t, I would 100% cbet.

He was a drooler and could easily be playing some stupid Ace or even AA this way. And he may not even fold something like KK-JJ to the flop bet.
Sorry, all my posts assumed you had the betting lead. my mistake. A lot of the advice still stands tho.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:42 AM   #38
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Iím all ears to listen, but I canít stop myself from questioning and re-questioning when I donít agree with something. Itís how I believe I can get better.

Just saying ďokay, next time Iíll bet here because 2p2 said soĒ doesnít work for me if Iím not convinced with the reasoning.

In this case, I got 3b preflop, yet someone said that I have the betting lead on flop. Can you explain whatís up with that?

This is NOT a cbet. I am NOT the preflop aggressor here.
The key is to know who to listen to and who to ignore. A lot of the people posting here don't know what they're doing, but think that they do, which is scary when you're trying to learn.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:21 AM   #39
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Seriously, why does everyone want to bet flop in a 3b pot and risk getting xraised????
I’d recommend spending some study time on hand configuration. In this spot there is an oop 3bettor who checks an A-high flop multi-way with a FD texture. Based on this action, it is very unlikely he (BB) has an ace.

While the SB could have one, a bet by Hero could fold most over cards/88- in his range, essentially representing the ace, and building a pot with a FD/GS equity. If called, Hero can continue on favorable non-diamond turns that provide gut-shot potential.

As far as getting X/R, Hero called (T8s) a 3b pre for 60 bbs effective. This is not a bad flop for a weak 3b calling hand.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:33 AM   #40
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

I want to bet flop because I very rarely see people protect their checking range. What percentage of the time do people actually check AK/AQ here and then checkraise it? BB is usually checking here to check call once or check give up. If we get check raised by SB which is unlikely he probably had us smoked anyway.

Basically everything Samo said.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:37 AM   #41
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

I'm actually fine with the flop check and I think automatically betting your flush draws here is a leak.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:38 AM   #42
Badreg2017
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

It’s 100% a leak against a balanced opponent but is it really a leak vs population that doesn’t protect their checks?

Last edited by Badreg2017; 03-13-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:45 AM   #43
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I'm actually fine with the flop check and I think automatically betting your flush draws here is a leak.
It's never automatic, though I think this spot is since it is very unlikely the BB is checking a big ace, especially with the As out.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:48 AM   #44
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
/thread

1. Why are you $300 effective?

2. Why are you not betting flop? You have T-hi, a flush draw and a 3 card straight that can turn OESD on an additional 6 cards, plus an Axx board that you can rep the ace on.

Your mental game is completely shot.
Yeah Ava and johnny are spot on here. Raising turn is automatic and betting this flop when checked to is as well. Especially the turn....if they fold who cares? You will get value from all hands with a high spade (and maybe even just Ax if they are droolers as you say), protect your hand versus those draws while getting value, and don't have to worry about a 4th spade killing action.

And we are never b/f with our stack. Not even close to deep enough to worry about that. If someone wants to GII on th turn, then giddy up. Coolers gonna cooler if we are beat.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:55 AM   #45
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samo View Post
Iíd recommend spending some study time on hand configuration. In this spot there is an oop 3bettor who checks an A-high flop multi-way with a FD texture. Based on this action, it is very unlikely he (BB) has an ace.

While the SB could have one, a bet by Hero could fold most over cards/88- in his range, essentially representing the ace, and building a pot with a FD/GS equity. If called, Hero can continue on favorable non-diamond turns that provide gut-shot potential.

As far as getting X/R, Hero called (T8s) a 3b pre for 60 bbs effective. This is not a bad flop for a weak 3b calling hand.
+1 to the bolded. This is not a standard 3! pot as he min-raised from the blind which means his range is more likely wider than a standard 3! sizing. Could he have an A or AA? Sure. But combinatorically, the # of hands that he could also have that don't contain an Ace is way higher than those that do given this action (small 3! pre/x A high board). Not to mention, that against everything but SPECIFICALLY AA, you have decent equity, a board where you can rep tons of hands on later streets that put enormous pressure on 1 pair, and position. Those three things in combo are very powerful.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:03 AM   #46
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

In the unlikely event villain has exactly AA rather than a multitude of other combos, your baby stack leaves you with nearly enough equity to call off a x/jam. For the rest of his range, you now have two chances to fold better with a bet flop -> shove turn line PLUS your hand’s actual equity. In this instance your 60 BB stack actually works out in your favor.

Edit: shorn said same
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:23 AM   #47
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Re: 2/5: Raising when we know it will look super strong?

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I'm actually fine with the flop check and I think automatically betting your flush draws here is a leak.
For sure I agree with the latter and I'm not suggesting betting all flush draws. But I'm trying to figure out why you're fine with checking this hand.

we don't have enough/any fold equity against both opponents?
we don't know enough about their ranges, particularly SBs
we're too short
we aren't value betting enough to justify bluffing this combo?
we have enough bluff combos we prefer over this one?
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