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Old 02-18-2019, 04:19 PM   #1
kittrell87
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2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

First time playing 2/5, no reads on V aside from he is very limpy. Maybe 30 min into session.

V BB with roughly $1200
H mp1 with $500

Limps to H who makes it $35 with QdQs
V calls
everyone else folds

Flop $87 89Jr. V checks, hero bets $60, V raises to $160.

I don't see folding here. Is there merit in raising?
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:48 PM   #2
samo
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

As played, I'd fold to a BB calling range. He could have pair/SD combos along with the 2 pr+ part of his range, but only 15-18 hands in we are readless. The even $100 on top is usually a sign of strength.

I think QQ needs protection so cbetting is good, though I'd go $40-45.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:53 PM   #3
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

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Originally Posted by kittrell87 View Post
First time playing 2/5, no reads on V aside from he is very limpy. Maybe 30 min into session.

V BB with roughly $1200
H mp1 with $500

Limps to H who makes it $35 with QdQs
V calls
everyone else folds

Flop $87 89Jr. V checks, hero bets $60, V raises to $160.

I don't see folding here. Is there merit in raising?
That's a big problem. You want to play a big pot with a gutshot? Its very unlikely the guy has AJ or worse.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:12 PM   #4
kittrell87
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

So we should always be putting him on 2pr or better here?
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:19 PM   #5
adamzerner
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

I like betting the flop, but I'd go for a bigger size, maybe $75 or $80. On such a draw heavy board, you want to size it such that draws don't have the implied odds to call against you.

Once you are check-raised, I think that your beautiful overpair actually becomes a bluff catcher. Is Villain really going to check-raise AJ on such a scary board? Probably not. Especially if Villain is limpy.

The question then becomes whether you should continue. You have 3:1 pot odds which would imply that you need 25% equity to continue. With 6 outs, you have about that much according to the rule of 4&2, so it looks like a call. However, this isn't an end of action spot. There are more rounds of betting to come. So if Villain bets pot on the turn, you're not calling $100 to win $307, you're calling $407 to win $707, which means that you need more like 36% equity. And that doesn't even factor in the river. So if Villain is on a strictly value range, I think that this is definitely a fold. And even if you throw a few bluffs in, it's still a fold, but most people wouldn't look to bluff on such a scary board.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:55 PM   #6
ChrisV
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
That's a big problem. You want to play a big pot with a gutshot? Its very unlikely the guy has AJ or worse.
Don't think things are that easy. Give the guy this range:

{ JJ-88,QTs,J9s-J8s,T7s,QTo,JTo,T9o,98o }

I think that's pretty fair. Giving him all the sets, all straights except T7o, all two pairs except J8o and J9o. For hands we beat, just JT/T9/TT. We have 44% equity against that range, so we can't fold.

I'd jam on the grounds that a lot of good turn cards for us (Q, T) are extremely action killing. Want to get it in while we have pretty good equity.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:57 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

I mean idk, maybe the guy only ever checkraises with 2 pair + here, it's hard to say. If you take the TT/JT/T9 out of the above range, we drop sharply to 23% equity. In a 2/5 game against an unknown it's pretty hard to analyze.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:03 PM   #8
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

what is the age/ethnicity of this guy? if this is the only info we have , it is better than no info

this can help us determine how wide he is x/r'ing the flop
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:04 PM   #9
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Don't think things are that easy. Give the guy this range:

{ JJ-88,QTs,J9s-J8s,T7s,QTo,JTo,T9o,98o }

I think that's pretty fair. Giving him all the sets, all straights except T7o, all two pairs except J8o and J9o. For hands we beat, just JT/T9/TT. We have 44% equity against that range, so we can't fold.

I'd jam on the grounds that a lot of good turn cards for us (Q, T) are extremely action killing. Want to get it in while we have pretty good equity.
Assuming your range is correct, we have 44% equity and we need about 40% to be break even if we jam and he calls. I can find a lot more spots with more than a 4% overlay considering my skill advantage over most 2/5 players.

If that's really his range its not terrible to shove, with ANY overlay, but I rarely see people check raising in this spot with JT/T9/TT. At least not in my games. Take those hands out and we are in a lot of trouble.

Personally I dont like it and I fold. I find that I win tons and tons of money when I am shoveling money into the pot and I lose money when someone else is the aggressor (unless I'm trapping with a monster). People are just passive in general until they hit a big hand.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:32 PM   #10
kittrell87
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
what is the age/ethnicity of this guy? if this is the only info we have , it is better than no info

this can help us determine how wide he is x/r'ing the flop
Mid 50s Arabic guy. As the night went on I got more reads on him but Iím not sure that applies to this spot because at that time, I didnít have those reads.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:24 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

Absent any other information about his play I find a fold the first time he does this. It's possible to put villain on ranges that you have odds against to call or shove. But on a board this dangerous I would weight villain's range towards made hands and likely the upper end of those hands. The draws have a good chance of just calling.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:53 PM   #12
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

Looks like he’s milking you with small sizing to shove the turn. Given you are readless nobody knows whether he has JT or 99. Fold and file away the info for future use.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:23 AM   #13
kittrell87
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Re: 2/5: QQ facing aggression on 89J flop

I also forgot to mention that his chip stack was very uneven and unorganized. I know that might not seem like much but it generally speaks volumes against most people I see.

I elected to shove here. I am 45% against the best of the range of most non full time regs here and can definitely be called by lots of pair+draws.

He snap calls with J9off. 10 comes in on turn, J on river.

I later go on to find he is a major station idiot and I get it all back with AA on a 784 7 8 board. After the 2/5 game busted he came to my 1/3 table and I watched him 3b shove $400 into a $20 raise with AQo and 3b shove $400 against a blind raise with A6o. He said he only looked at one of his cards that hand.
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