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Old 05-22-2018, 08:35 AM   #26
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Whether we leak money by call/evaluate lines depends entirely on how often we do it. Sometimes it is the best line.

Maybe not here, but this is a rather sweeping statement.

We really need a read on villain to decide folding is the best move. Or at least a read of the table, the time of day, something. It's hard to believe there is really no information to be had here. I usually find even with unknowns who just sat down I have some kind of read based on whether the person is talking, seems serious, how the person is dressed, how the chips are stacked, the color of the chips, the person's gender and race, etc.
Here's what Im saying....lets say you have no read at all. You are a bot with no reading abilities at all and the only info you have to go on is the fact that you got raised.

If you fold every time you get raised (when you have something like a 1 pair hand and not a big hand) you will come out ahead long term than if you continue in the hand.

In other words, when you get raised your first instinct should be to fold. People are passive and they raise when they are very confidant they are ahead so they usually are. Now if you know the guy is a tough player and will raise with a draw, or a gutshot and overcards or whatever...then that's an entirely different situation, but in that spot you do have a read.

Try it over your next 500 hours. Record your results when you get raised. If there's $50 in the pot and you bet $35 and get raised.....if you lose the hand you lose whatever amount you put in after the $35. If you win the hand you get credit for the $50 plus the $35 plus whatever else you win after that point.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:38 AM   #27
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by Phil Me Up View Post
You do realize 5 people, including me, advised folding before you did ITT, right?

Regardless, what I'm getting at is, we all screw the pooch now and again Mike. Even you, I'd guess. And the fact is you can go through many, many hours of live poker and not face this sort of line/action w/ a strong overpair+ on a hospitable board texture, so yeah it's "obvious" in hindsight he should've folded, but it's easy to forget ITM what you "should do" & level yourself in a spot you haven't experience in awhile.
And? I didnt say I was the only one who said to fold. I asked why you thought this was an unsual spot. People dont normally raise in your games when they have 2 pair? Especially on semi wet boards? The guy played the hand totally ABC standard. The guy raised the flop and could beat TPTK. That's what most people do when they can beat TPTK. If they cant beat TPTK they usually just call.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:22 AM   #28
Joey913
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

^^MikeStarr with some truth bombs above.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:58 AM   #29
Phil Me Up
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Here's what Im saying....lets say you have no read at all. You are a bot with no reading abilities at all and the only info you have to go on is the fact that you got raised.

If you fold every time you get raised (when you have something like a 1 pair hand and not a big hand) you will come out ahead long term than if you continue in the hand.

In other words, when you get raised your first instinct should be to fold. People are passive and they raise when they are very confidant they are ahead so they usually are. Now if you know the guy is a tough player and will raise with a draw, or a gutshot and overcards or whatever...then that's an entirely different situation, but in that spot you do have a read.

Try it over your next 500 hours. Record your results when you get raised. If there's $50 in the pot and you bet $35 and get raised.....if you lose the hand you lose whatever amount you put in after the $35. If you win the hand you get credit for the $50 plus the $35 plus whatever else you win after that point.
Many of us agree. This is all stating the obvious.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:59 AM   #30
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
And? I didnt say I was the only one who said to fold. I asked why you thought this was an unsual spot. People dont normally raise in your games when they have 2 pair? Especially on semi wet boards? The guy played the hand totally ABC standard. The guy raised the flop and could beat TPTK. That's what most people do when they can beat TPTK. If they cant beat TPTK they usually just call.
Again, not sure how/why you're making this into an argument. I wasn't disagreeing. I was saying you were/are making a point many of us already made & I was reminding OP/others that we all make mistakes. We get it - folding is best.

Last edited by Phil Me Up; 05-22-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:42 PM   #31
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Here's what Im saying....lets say you have no read at all. You are a bot with no reading abilities at all and the only info you have to go on is the fact that you got raised.

If you fold every time you get raised (when you have something like a 1 pair hand and not a big hand) you will come out ahead long term than if you continue in the hand.

In other words, when you get raised your first instinct should be to fold. People are passive and they raise when they are very confidant they are ahead so they usually are. Now if you know the guy is a tough player and will raise with a draw, or a gutshot and overcards or whatever...then that's an entirely different situation, but in that spot you do have a read.

Try it over your next 500 hours. Record your results when you get raised. If there's $50 in the pot and you bet $35 and get raised.....if you lose the hand you lose whatever amount you put in after the $35. If you win the hand you get credit for the $50 plus the $35 plus whatever else you win after that point.
Fold every time we get raised with a 1p hand? Like we fold AA on J86tt to any raise? Or for a more extreme example fold AAsc on J86sss?

Also we aren't bots. I often call suspicious raises with one pair hands, even if I have no hand history with the villain. I'm usually correct in my read.

Granted if we suck at reading boards and people it might be better to just fold almost always.

You play in what you have repeatedly claimed is one of the toughest rooms in the country and in particular one of the nittiest. And you play days right?

Maybe in your games if you get raised it's time to fold one pair hands but I find plenty of people raising draws, combo draws, pair+draw, and TP that I'm only snap folding overpairs to known nits and old men.

Just the other day I had this hand.

A2/5 QQ donkfest:K2/5 QQ donkfest MP

UTG+1 25 I 75 LJ calls UTG+1 calls

Flop (225) A2/5 QQ donkfest:Q2/5 QQ donkfest:42/5 QQ donkfest

UTG+1 x I 100 both call

Turn (525) A2/5 QQ donkfest:Q2/5 QQ donkfest:42/5 QQ donkfest42/5 QQ donkfest:

UTG+1 x. I 175 meaning to 200. LJ ships 600. UTG+1 folds.

I had zero history with this guy. Just sat down. Normally this is an easy fold because what on earth do I beat? But people here will try to blow you off chops and he was acting very suspicious. He immediately started playing with his phone after the bet and wouldn't look at the board or me. I tanked about a minute and called and I felt pretty good about it, and I chopped vs AK as I thought I was. Super lucky? Maybe, but if so I'm super lucky in these kinds of spots a lot.

Another from a few days earlier. Again I had zero history with the guy.

92/5 QQ donkfest:92/5 QQ donkfest: CO 4 limps I 35 button + BB + limpers call

Flop (210) J2/5 QQ donkfest72/5 QQ donkfest62/5 QQ donkfest:

X to me. This is usually a x but several players look uninterested. I 100. BTN takes about 30s then stacks his chips slowly and goes all in for 295 total. Folds to me. I'm getting 605:195 so I need to hold up about 25%. I'm heavily discounting sets and even AJ as he just took so long to decide to ship. I think he has mostly draws.

I call. Board bricks out and I win vs A2/5 QQ donkfest52/5 QQ donkfest

I don't make these kinds of calls a lot but when I do I'm almost always right. I can't even find a recent example where I called a 1 pair hand and my read was incorrect.

My point is...I think it depends on the room, the day of the week, the typical play of that room, the time of day, etc., as to whether we should snap fold 1 pair hands vs. unknowns. And more than that we can often get information even from unknowns to help us decide.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:49 PM   #32
fishsoup
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

Readless, I make a nitty fold and try not to think too much about it. Happens.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:14 PM   #33
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Fold every time we get raised with a 1p hand? Like we fold AA on J86tt to any raise? Or for a more extreme example fold AAsc on J86sss?

Also we aren't bots. I often call suspicious raises with one pair hands, even if I have no hand history with the villain. I'm usually correct in my read.

Granted if we suck at reading boards and people it might be better to just fold almost always.

You play in what you have repeatedly claimed is one of the toughest rooms in the country and in particular one of the nittiest. And you play days right?

Maybe in your games if you get raised it's time to fold one pair hands but I find plenty of people raising draws, combo draws, pair+draw, and TP that I'm only snap folding overpairs to known nits and old men.

Just the other day I had this hand.

A2/5 QQ donkfest:K2/5 QQ donkfest MP

UTG+1 25 I 75 LJ calls UTG+1 calls

Flop (225) A2/5 QQ donkfest:Q2/5 QQ donkfest:42/5 QQ donkfest

UTG+1 x I 100 both call

Turn (525) A2/5 QQ donkfest:Q2/5 QQ donkfest:42/5 QQ donkfest42/5 QQ donkfest:

UTG+1 x. I 175 meaning to 200. LJ ships 600. UTG+1 folds.

I had zero history with this guy. Just sat down. Normally this is an easy fold because what on earth do I beat? But people here will try to blow you off chops and he was acting very suspicious. He immediately started playing with his phone after the bet and wouldn't look at the board or me. I tanked about a minute and called and I felt pretty good about it, and I chopped vs AK as I thought I was. Super lucky? Maybe, but if so I'm super lucky in these kinds of spots a lot.

Another from a few days earlier. Again I had zero history with the guy.

92/5 QQ donkfest:92/5 QQ donkfest: CO 4 limps I 35 button + BB + limpers call

Flop (210) J2/5 QQ donkfest72/5 QQ donkfest62/5 QQ donkfest:

X to me. This is usually a x but several players look uninterested. I 100. BTN takes about 30s then stacks his chips slowly and goes all in for 295 total. Folds to me. I'm getting 605:195 so I need to hold up about 25%. I'm heavily discounting sets and even AJ as he just took so long to decide to ship. I think he has mostly draws.

I call. Board bricks out and I win vs A2/5 QQ donkfest52/5 QQ donkfest

I don't make these kinds of calls a lot but when I do I'm almost always right. I can't even find a recent example where I called a 1 pair hand and my read was incorrect.

My point is...I think it depends on the room, the day of the week, the typical play of that room, the time of day, etc., as to whether we should snap fold 1 pair hands vs. unknowns. And more than that we can often get information even from unknowns to help us decide.
If you have no history with villain, you have no read. You're just guessing.

Of course you will be right some of the time, but you didnt post some of the hands where you got raised, you continued and you lost. Keep track honestly for 500 hours and see where youre at. If youre ahead then kudos to you. You're doing well.

People talk about how many hours they play and how many hours they study away from the table but nobody does any real work AT the table. Work like this is much more valuable than theories you read about in a book or see on a video. When you do it yourself in real time and track your progress you learn from trial and error and have full confidence in what works and what doesnt.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:21 PM   #34
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
i813]

UTG+1 x. I 175 meaning to 200. LJ ships 600. UTG+1 folds.

I had zero history with this guy. Just sat down. Normally this is an easy fold because what on earth do I beat? But people here will try to blow you off chops and he was acting very suspicious. He immediately started playing with his phone after the bet and wouldn't look at the board or me. I tanked about a minute and called and I felt pretty good about it, and I chopped vs AK as I thought I was. Super lucky? Maybe, but if so I'm super lucky in these kinds of spots a lot.

.
you have zero read and call hoping for a chop?
this is not advice to be giving to folks who actually want to learn.
we can go to a roulette table and try to guess what number is coming up!
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:26 AM   #35
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
If you have no history with villain, you have no read. You're just guessing.

Of course you will be right some of the time, but you didnt post some of the hands where you got raised, you continued and you lost. Keep track honestly for 500 hours and see where youre at. If youre ahead then kudos to you. You're doing well.

People talk about how many hours they play and how many hours they study away from the table but nobody does any real work AT the table. Work like this is much more valuable than theories you read about in a book or see on a video. When you do it yourself in real time and track your progress you learn from trial and error and have full confidence in what works and what doesnt.
I have no objection to noting lines as you describe and it is a good idea but not one I can use right now to comment in this thread. I don't have any HHs except what's on my new phone as my last one bricked a bit over a month ago. I honestly don't have any hands where I call and my read was incorrect.

It's not just guessing. It's Bayesian inference, psychology, understanding population characteristics, etc. There are many aspects of work at the table. One is observing people closely for behavioral aberrations. I don't necessarily need history with a villain to get a read on him, though it helps.

BTW what's with the unfounded assertion I don't do real work at the table? You're not the only one who takes this game seriously.

Trial and error is a far from ideal way to learn in a game this random and slow. If the goal is to become a good player over 30 years I'm sure it's a great technique but I'm not that patient.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:37 AM   #36
Shai Hulud
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

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you have zero read and call hoping for a chop?
this is not advice to be giving to folks who actually want to learn.
we can go to a roulette table and try to guess what number is coming up!
Zero history not zero read. I had a lot of information actually which is why I called.

My advice is to learn to read people and spot common tells to avoid being in spots with zero clue as to how villain plays.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:51 AM   #37
PFunkaliscious
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Re: 2/5 QQ donkfest

ugh.

So many times V2 has AJ. But really, $480 is far too much to discover if V2 is FOS or not.

Muck it and adjust accordingly.
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