2/5 QQ donkfest - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Table reasonably new

hero (UtG+1 covers) is 30s wg, image doesnt matter this hand.

V1 (SB 800) 40s WG, sat down with his friend, his second time around the table, his friend mentioned being not hung over
V2 (BB 500) 30s asian female, first hand at the table.

Hero raises QQ to $20, Vs call

Flop ($60) J87r
V1 bets $35
V2 raises to $100 somewhat quickly.

Donk bets are usually weak hands but what about donk raises???

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05-20-2018 , 12:57 PM

momo_uk

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 2,546

Terrible flop. Even if you call this bet, are you really calling a $200 bet on a brick turn? All you can beat is AJ. There’s no flush draws out there. You also have to be worried about the initial donkbettor. Pretty marginal spot.

Easy fold without reads.

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05-20-2018 , 12:57 PM

Mr Spyutastic

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 15,078

Since you have position, I would flat the $100 and see what develops. Your flat of the raise should be concerning to either villain if they don't have strong hands. The next actions should be a pretty straightforward action from either villain.

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05-20-2018 , 01:07 PM

surplus

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 31

Can't hardly think of a good turn card other than Q and 6, and latter being a stretch.

Vs in these games don't stop aggression on turn after a big bet like $100.

Easy fold.

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05-20-2018 , 01:21 PM

Tomark

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 2,815

Quote:

Originally Posted by momo_uk

What about KJ QJ (maybe) and id certainly think JT J9 98? I feel like those are more likely than AJ, but i really have no idea.

Also was thinking maybe its just a stone cold bluff, only because... thats what I would have if I was V2 (not that i think she plays like me im just saying its possible she would)

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05-20-2018 , 01:43 PM

russianbear13

banned

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 188

I’m inclined to call and go from there. She most likely has two pair here so her actions on the turn will be important.

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05-20-2018 , 01:56 PM

Phil Me Up

adept

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 808

T9/J8/J7s/87/88/77 are all crushing us.

Readless, maybe we can give them an overplayed AJ? Doesn't seem like a hospitable spot. Wouldn't fault a fold in the slightest.

I guess call > shove too if you want an alternative, but idk how either of those works out in our favor on this board 3-way vs heavy action.

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05-20-2018 , 02:32 PM

Jay S

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,460

Even if we throw in a few KJ/QJ & pair+draw combos, it's hard to get past about 40% equity without putting a bunch of gutshot semibluffs in V's range.

Not sure call & evaluate makes much sense; how much are we really altering her range when she fires again on most turns? Calling and then folding on a brick turn is burning money. Against an unknown 30s asian female V, I think an exploitable fold is fine here.

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05-20-2018 , 03:52 PM

Mr Spyutastic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay S

That's the thing, you don't know how often she will fire the turn.
With your line, you're assuming she will continue with a high frequency. I'm not so sure. I've seen this spot often enough where it goes check by the villain.

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05-20-2018 , 04:38 PM

#10

Phil Me Up

adept

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 808

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic

We should assume she's firing turns a ton iyam.

You get a check sometimes, sure. Doesn't mean we won't face a river bomb either, if it goes xx ott.

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05-20-2018 , 04:48 PM

#11

Mr Spyutastic

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idk live players I've seen at this level raise a donk lead with a J here a ton. Vs most live players I'm calling QQ here.

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05-20-2018 , 08:26 PM

#12

Shai Hulud

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,919

I do see people donk raise with weak hands or even total air occasionally. Unfortunate she's an unknown. I think pair+SD hands are very likely. T9 88 77 of course but the insta-raise seems weird especially with T9. She's 100BB deep and can get stacks in without a raise yet so seems like she would at least consider flatting with the nuts. And I don't think we should assume she fires turn always. With draws people often raise flop and x turn.

I think call/evaluate turn watching her closely with peripheral vision for any tells.

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05-20-2018 , 08:45 PM

#13

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

All of these "call and see what develops" or "call and go from there" are cop outs. I think we are in a marginally ahead or WB situation and given we are essentially readless I make a nitty fold. There isn't a good turn card for us outside of a Q (how was the 6 good for us?) and if we flat not only can V1 come over the top but even if he doesn't we're likely going to face another big bet from V2 on the turn when we most likely still have 1 pair.

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05-20-2018 , 10:13 PM

#14

MikeStarr

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If you keep track of all money made or lost when you call a raise with the intention of evaluating the next street you will quickly find out you're leaking money left and right.

If you're not confidant you're ahead when you get raised, just fold. You're bank account will thank you.

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05-20-2018 , 10:21 PM

#15

kashabrown

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 316

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

+1!!

Sent from my SM-N950U using 2+2 Forums

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05-20-2018 , 11:06 PM

#16

crsseyed

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,024

Donk bet followed by donk raise before action even gets to you as preflop raiser is bad news.

Don't assume other players are idiots until they prove it to you.

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05-21-2018 , 01:17 AM

#17

Mr Spyutastic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by crsseyed

Donk bet followed by donk raise before action even gets to you as preflop raiser is bad news.

Don't assume other players are idiots until they prove it to you.

Well raising this flop with anything that beats QQ vs a donk and the pfr behind you is kind of bad.

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05-21-2018 , 01:36 AM

#18

Nozsr

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 1,722

Maybe they both are full of BS. This time. "One time".

But I have seen that, in my games, most of the time at least one of them beats QQ.

Are we feeling "lucky"?

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05-21-2018 , 06:57 AM

#19

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic

Well raising this flop with anything that beats QQ vs a donk and the pfr behind you is kind of bad.

I don't know about that. If I were V2 and had 87s/77/88 I may very well donk raise V1 on this straighty board.

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05-21-2018 , 07:39 AM

#20

Tomark

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 2,815

results

Spoiler:

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05-21-2018 , 01:41 PM

#21

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

I won't 100% agree, but it certainly applies in this spot (and I have not seen the spoiler yet). Key for me is you, the PFR, have yet to act and you could theoretically have all sets and T9 in your range here. So the fact that BB is willing to raise anyway means there is almost 0 chance your hand is good. Dump it and don't even worry about what they turn over THIS time.

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05-21-2018 , 04:20 PM

#22

Phil Me Up

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 808

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomark

results

Spoiler:

I wouldn't sweat it. These spots are unusual for sure. Live poker can throw you for some weird loops after you've been through a long stretch w/o encountering these more novel situations, even if you're a volume warrior.

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05-21-2018 , 08:55 PM

#23

MikeStarr

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Me Up

How is this an unusual spot? The player raised the flop with 2 pair. When someone raises they almost always can TPTK or better. Usually better.

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05-21-2018 , 09:30 PM

#24

Phil Me Up

adept

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 808

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

How is this an unusual spot? The player raised the flop with 2 pair. When someone raises they almost always can TPTK or better. Usually better.

You do realize 5 people, including me, advised folding before you did ITT, right?

Regardless, what I'm getting at is, we all screw the pooch now and again Mike. Even you, I'd guess. And the fact is you can go through many, many hours of live poker and not face this sort of line/action w/ a strong overpair+ on a hospitable board texture, so yeah it's "obvious" in hindsight he should've folded, but it's easy to forget ITM what you "should do" & level yourself in a spot you haven't experience in awhile.

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05-21-2018 , 11:49 PM

#25

Shai Hulud

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,919

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

Whether we leak money by call/evaluate lines depends entirely on how often we do it. Sometimes it is the best line.

Maybe not here, but this is a rather sweeping statement.

We really need a read on villain to decide folding is the best move. Or at least a read of the table, the time of day, something. It's hard to believe there is really no information to be had here. I usually find even with unknowns who just sat down I have some kind of read based on whether the person is talking, seems serious, how the person is dressed, how the chips are stacked, the color of the chips, the person's gender and race, etc.

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