I'm normally a 1/2 player but when the room got down to 1 bad 1/2 game took $600 to a 2/5 game. I worked it up to $1400 and faced this hand. Hero and V are the two largest stacks.

UTG $1100: 35ish Asian guy. Plays TAG. Is positionally aware. Good player. Opens to $15. I was playing with him 1/2 earlier and never saw him raise EP much less UTG in several hours.

Hero (UTG+1): MAWG. $1400. Probably viewed as TAG. I have not been caught getting out of line. I did 3-bet him once at the 1/2 game (where I squeezed light from the blinds after a button raise) and he folded I didn't show. Looks down at AKhh. Makes it $50.

Folds back to V who makes it $210.

Thoughts on initial 3-bet? Is there enough room to call this and see a flop or is it a fold or 5-bet?

Either flat and play with caution or just let it go.
He almost certainly has QQ+.

He's pretty much announcing to you that he has a premium pocket pair AA-QQ.

Based on what you said about the villain Id just call here. 5 betting is obviously an option but you're going to have to pray for a good board run out and hope he's able to lay down his premium pre flop hand and you have position. This hand is just too good to lay down.

Concerning the 3 bet I would size up a little bit. From UTG 1 you have people behind.

AK loses a lot of value deep. AKs is more capable of making a big hand, so that's less true in this case.

I don't want to go to war against a good TAG's UTG 4bet range at a game higher than I normally play. It's just asking for trouble. I'd much rather flat and keep in his AQ, maybe AJs/KQs. You can compensate for this by 3bet/folding hands like 88-JJ.

As played, I think you can make the call profitably with 900ish effective still behind. I think a 5bet mostly, or only, gets called by KK+

3bet pre fine, fold AP to the 4bet

I would fold. On paper you are deep enough that you could flat and play this but in practice your range for 3 betting from UTG+1 is pretty transparent and villains 4-bet range is strong and weighted towards the top. Post flop villain will have a better idea where they stand. Against some bad villains I would be fine with calling with position but against a reasonably good one I fold.

I'd make a frustrating fold given the range vs, described opponent, as well as the fact you've moved up in stakes and are sitting on a nice profit.

Thanks for the replies. I folded and V showed AQo. I was shocked it wasnt QQ+/AK.

That's why I made this thread, I was thinking maybe I should not have been shocked and this should be a snap call/5-bet.

As for the replies, I just can't see flatting this here leaving a pot of like $420 with $900 behind where we have no idea where we stand and most likely to whiff the flop. Maybe it's just a leak in my game but I feel like I'm going to get owned in this situation anytime the flop isn't AAK or QJT.

I think you shouldn't be playing deep if you are folding AKs to 4 bets. Yes, it's closer to the bottom of your calling range, but if that's the case, don't 3 bet then.

I think fold is fine

Flat or fold. Flatting depends on how good he is post-flop -- and how comfortable/good you are playing against him. If there is any question, just let it go.

Edit: Just saw you had posted results. Oh, well.

It happens. I dont think the fold is a disaster in this spot. V earned the fold by never PFR from UTG for several hours perhaps including other EP spots. He's also bad enough to show us so we can play perfectly in the future. We lost 10 BB by 3!/folding here against what we read as a nutted range. Why let it get under your skin? I don't like flatting here either if we give him this nutted range since we rarely get to realize our equity and still dont feel safe on K high flops. The ability to deviate from standard lines based on reads is generally a strength. This time V used it to his advantage. He's described as a good player so he probably has realized how he is being ranged here.

If it was CO vs BTN or MP vs BTN, probably flatting but UTG vs UTG + 1 it’s a pretty easy but annoying fold. He got you this time, good for him but overall flatting is going to lose money long term

Does anyone else think flatting the open raise is a prudent option?

3b is a better option because
- we are way ahead of his open range 77+, AJ+, KJs+
- we are deep and want to build the pot with a premium
- more likely to get it HU

Flatting invites everyone with position to see the flop which we will have to play oop and without initiative. HU in position deep with a premium is basically the nuts.

Yes I do.... I think it is clearly the best option. V has been quiet for hours from up front which means very little (sample size). He may have been getting crappy hands from up front (ever happen to you?) or maybe he just opens tight (TT+, AQ+ =4.7% of hands).

H has 51.6% equity vs that range. We have blockers to the 2 hands we are crushed by. We are in good shape but not great shape vs V's range. WE HAVE POSITION!!! Why not just play poker at this depth.

Maybe I'm gutless but my BR isn't deep enough to do 51/49 coin flips for $1,100 a throw even though I'm a weee favorite and I'm guessing H's isn't either :-)

Didn't fat old Falstaff once say something like discretion is the better part of valor?

I misread OP and thought we were OTB in the hand... my bad.

H is "way" ahead of the opening range you assigned 55/45. H went to great lengths to say V hadn't opened in hours from up front. Nits don't usually open AJo/KJs utg.

Flatting has its own set of potential problems, but when you get 4 bet you've put yourself in a bad spot even in position (and the likelihood of being 4! by a nit UTG opener is real).

The question is does a 1-2 player want to commit 5.5 buy ins with ace hi vs an UTG nit opener.

Samoleous did a podcast with Bart Hanson years ago on Cash Plays talking about not 3! in situations like this. His argument was basically wait until you have a clear edge to blast away.

Pretty much this.

If this were 1/2, completely different story. I would agree that barely anyone 3 bets without the premiums, and 4 bet is exclusively AA/KK. 2/5 is a much different animal, in my experience. 3 bets come pretty lightly, and a lot of people 4 bet sort of light to squeeze the lighter 3 bets.

I get that you are in a weird zone, and I understand why people say fold. But honestly, if you can't play AKs in position deep, either rack out when you get past your comfort zone, or don't 3 bet.

If he had called the 4 bet, he would have had position. V was UTG, H is UTG+1

OP didn't say he was a nit... a tag can open all kinds of stuff like suited connectors, AXs, etc. Probably not at 100% frequency but they do it sometimes especially when bored/card dead. While 55/45 isn't a huge advantage we are going to be able to blow him off a lot of setmines and mid pps as the preflop 3bettor, so that 45% will not be realized a lot of the time.

We get 4bet so rarely since our range has to be strong to 3b the utg raiser. It isn't that bad of a spot when it happens either since we can just fold against his likely QQ+ range. Using AQo as sort of a bluff is pretty advanced and uncommon.

The game is 2/5, he may have been waiting for a 2/5 to open up playing 1/2. I think the understanding that he's some 1/2 nit goes out the window because he 4bet us with AQo.

flatting the 15 is weak.
its 3B or fold and if we are not 3 betting AK just what is the 3bet range?
as for the 4 bet that's gut check time.
are we playing the hand or preserving profit?
if the later fold and rack up.
if the former saddle up and get ready to get it in.

The whole 3b or fold thing certainly has been rising in popularity on 2+2. I do think it’s misapplied a lot, most specifically from the SB, and also the BB. It was born from certain type of game dynamics, and yes it will have its application in live but not to the extent a lot of people think it does

If you’re not given the option to 3b AKs here, it’s never a fold under any circumstance. The EV of 3b isn’t astronomically higher than calling.

Huge +1 to this.
I have reduced my calling range and 3!/folded more lately out of the SB and I am quite positive it’s an experiment that I’ve decided to end.

In hindsight that is certainly true. However, the only information we had when the hand was played was V hadn't opened up front in hours which kinda argues against sc's and small PP's in his range. H emphasized he hadn't open in EP for hours.

One thing I do like is you have a plan before you want to 3! in case you do get 4 bet. That is very important.

There are some very respected players who would completely disagree. Flatting has some advantages here. It completely under reps you hand and keeps the part of V's range you dominate in the pot.

We are > 200bbs deep here. bloating the pot where the outcome is uncertain has potential drawbacks.

Samoleus went into this in detail here (discussion begins at minute mark 20:00):

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/samoleus-1

I also thought OP was otb for some reason. I would definitely 3bet from utg1, but I'm open to considering these arguments for just flatting.