Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? 2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position?

06-25-2018 , 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
I did 4 bet to exactly 250 and he snap folded. Hindsight always 20/20 but seems like faced with a high probability he's squeezing I should flat IP at least some of the time.
I would flat if you were shallower but there's still a lot of stack to play for.

Villain used a pretty large 3! sizing so it's reasonable to think he would be strong here. Turns out he just went for max FE pre and was likely planning to x/f most flops unless he smashed.

Your sizing still leaves open the possibility for villain to 5bet.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 03:29 PM
The presence of the BTN makes me want to call more. It's going to force the BB to be far more value heavy post/shut down lots of failed PF bluffs (that would always fold to your 4b pre anyway).
Having two aces also cuts out a lot of BBs likely PF Ax bluffs which thickens his value range to some extent, perhaps that's negligible, but wanted to mention it because it's also the reason I had a lot more calls with KK in any such spot than AA.
Now, had the BTN been deeper/had fewer calls, then probably edge back toward a less exploitative/standard 4b for all the usual reasons one would want to 4b.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 03:31 PM
[Grunch] [although I scrolled down 3 posts to find out what BBs stack was] The reason I chose to grunch this is to find out how well I did vs. the pros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
2/5 NL

Hero: 30ish WG TAG, 1k stack, new table been running about 30 minutes

BTN: LP MAWG, 400 stack

BB: Upper 20s Asian male, reg, TAG bordering on sLAG

I get A2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position?:A2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position?: in CO I 20 BTN calls BB 3 bets 110. Hero?

So this is a textbook spot where BB should be squeezing pretty wide. I'm opening pretty wide in the CO, which he knows, and BTN is calling a ton, probably ~40% of hands, which he should also know having seen BTN playing most hands so far. And BB's sizing looks like a squeeze. Most value 3 bets I see here are sized closer to 80.
I'm amazed to find that people squeeze to $110 to win $42 with weak ranges! In any event, I'm 're-squeezing' to whatever size screams "Re-Squeeze!"
I'm also going on the fact that I've had the experience of a player 3! my AA with KK on the Button to $115 behind my $27 raise in 1/3NL & then call my all-in for $365 more, knowing damn well he is most likely up against AA.

I had another guy, just the other night, who knows my game very well, shove preflop to my "re-squeeze" sized raise pre with his AK. Of course I had AA.

So, I don't want him seeing a flop for his price, with his T9s & hit a flop like J75 with 2 of his suit, or, Q98 with 2 of his suit, etc. What do you do otf? He bets 50%, when you flat pre, you raise & take down an additional $125? Or, how do you handle it? Because isn't he callin' it off there with that draw?

And if the flop comes Q95 rainbow & he spiked JTs [15 out draw] or two pair/set, he's going nowhere. He has to hit something to continue post-flop, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
Should I consider flatting here in position? BTN may or may not overcall but if he does call I have an SPR of around 1 with him so am never folding vs him. Meanwhile I set up an SPR of 2.7 to 3.7 with BB depending whether BTN overcalls or not, either scenario of which is pretty good with Aces.

My question then is do we prefer flatting AA vs. a suspected squeeze or do we 4-bet as usual? Or use a mixed strategy? If we do 4-bet, what sizing should we use knowing BB may be relatively weak?

And furthermore, how would we respond in this scenario with other premium hands: particularly KK QQ and AK.

I think flatting QQ is too risky and probably same with AK. KK might be worth the risk.

Thoughts?
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 04:21 PM
This is a situation where I feel like calling with all of our continuing range is superior to 4betting with a polarized range.

1 - BTN yet to act is loose/passive, seems to be the worst player at the table. We should give him a chance to put more money in the pot while behind and the opportunity to make a second-best hand and stack off to us in a low-SPR pot.

2 - Worst case scenario, BTN folds and we're HU in position vs. the PFR in a pot with an SPR of around 3.7. Not auto-stack off mode, but we'll be able to get stacks in comfortably on most runouts, and since we're IP, we can give Villain the opportunity to continue with his bluffs during the times he is weak.

If we had a different player type on the BTN, someone who wasn't as stationy and likely to call the squeeze and pay us off with a second best hand, I'd be more inclined to 4bet the squeeze. And given Villain appears to be squeezing with a polarized range, we should want to mix in some 4bet bluffs in addition to our value hands.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
BB: Upper 20s Asian male, reg, TAG bordering on sLAG
Thoughts?
I thought SLAG was super loose agressive? How can you be between tight and super loose? Isn't that just regular loose?

I don't have a strong preference here whether to 4! or flat. I think HU I lean more flat and with the short stack behind it muddies the waters. 4! may be best but I don't mind a flat. If he checks the flop I'm not showing any weakness. Betting 2/3 pot, no cheap or free cards unless of course we flop the Ace.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
Nothing wrong with scooping 31BB, just considering if it might be more +EV to go into a low SPR pot in position with a hand 80%+ favorite over villains whole range, where I can win 200BB+ some decent percentage of the time.

Mike what is your 4 bet sizing? You think he calls or 5 bets 300 but not 250?

Squeezing I have always seen used contextually to mean 3-betting large after a wide open and one or more wide calls, usually made from the blinds, with the primary aim of scooping up the money or else isolating one player. I suppose we can separate "value squeezes" from "light squeezes" but most are going to be light since the goal is to put the PFR and caller in a nasty spot where they have to fold a ton. At least that's my understanding of a "squeeze play". If an OMC 3-bet to 80 from the blinds I would just call it a 3-bet because he probably isn't trying to squeeze anyone out of the pot.
You still win 200BB+ a decent amount of the time he has a premium and doesnt fold, or decides to get sticky with a bluff and call postflop “cuz deeeeep” (trust me a lot of players will do this, or regs who think they can lol “outplay” you) or just flat out spazzes out with a 5b. Im okay with flatting IP here if HU, but the BTN imo leans this more towards a 4b. Say you flat and BTN flats. Any good reg is not going to start barrelling and bluffing air, most likely even on boards good for his range. E.g. K83ss. I dont think flatting is a mistake at all, dont get me wrong though. It is close. If someone can provide me very compelling reasons, I might change my mind.

I am pretty sure the meaning of squeeze is just a 3-bet after a raiser and 1 or more callers. You can squeeze with AA as well. Doesnt mean they’re bluffing

Last edited by Minatorr; 06-25-2018 at 06:32 PM.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Any good reg is not going to start barrelling and bluffing air, most likely even on boards good for his range. If someone can provide me very compelling reasons, I might change my mind.
Which is why flatting can work well here because BB will bet value post and we don't make money anyway from his "bluffs" when we 4b pre. Besides calling bets, there are also a lot of outcomes where BB will be check calling given how floaty/bluffy/peely our perceived range will be on lots of boards. Again, with AA specifically, it limits BBs Ax bluffs, there are far less Axx action killing boards, and there is some also component to EV that relies on range deception - without going overboard of course.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-25-2018 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Honestly, in the games I play I probably see a 4 bet like once every 100+ hours. I assume Id see more if I played after midnight when stacks get deeper. So Im not going to say Im the authority on 4 bets, but Im pretty sure you aren't going to 4 bet to $250 even IP with AK or anything other than AA/KK..maybe QQ. Its just an obvious "please call me so I can have an easier time stacking you 200BBs deep" raise size.

With AK, I bet you either 4 bet much larger or just call IP. I dont believe youre ever going to 4 bet lite with something like A5s to just $250. IMO, you're giving your hand away to a decent player. If you read a book or watch a training video it probably does say that $250 is the correct amount for AA, but again that's why its so obvious to a good player. This guy may not be good though, I dont know.

This is just me, but Id rather shove and make it look like I have AK than to 4 bet that small. If he has a pocket pair hes not far off from profitably set mining you this deep. Hes calling an additional $140 to win a total of $1130.
To be clear when I said 2.5x is standard 4-bet sizing I meant with my whole range. Not "standard sizing for aces". Having a standard size for specific hands is idiotic and I don't think any books or training vids suggest that but maybe IDK. I'm generally not deviating based on hand strength but will deviate based on villain type, stack sizes, and position.

I do 4 bet light with this sizing. I don't know why you think I have some special sizing with AA vs AK vs QQ vs A5s. Just last week I open T9dd to 20 in HJ an aggressive reg OTB 80 and I 200 because I know he likes to 3 bet light. And he folds and I gets the cookies.

And vs a suspected light squeeze I would 4 bet a lot of hands because I have more fold equity than normal.

Weird how people make so many random assumptions about how I play. Couple sessions ago I open 20 UTG with TT flop 966 goes HU I c-bet and bet a blank turn and get raised all in so I fold. I ask if he had a 6 he says "No I just know you have AK there". I'm like "what? Why?" He says "Because you raised to 20". I'm totally confused but just nod my head like that makes sense because I don't want to admit his fish logic got me to fold an overpair.

Another guy about a week earlier. CO 20 BTN calls I 100 from SB with AK CO calls. Flop AQTtt. I bet half pot and CO folds KK face up. Guy on my left says "What? You're folding Kings?" CO says "there is just too much out there. Aces queens AK tens maybe AQ if he 3 bets it all I beat is jacks" and guy on my left says "but he wouldn't reraise AK to 100" and I laugh and say "what? How do you know what I raise with AK or anything else? We've been here 20 minutes." Dealer jokes "he's writing a book on you".

Point is nobody really knows that much about how another person plays unless they've put in tons of hours with them.

Back to the hand

Mike you think shoving 1k over 110 is a reasonable response here? I never see people playing AK like that. Maybe 100BB deep but not 200BB. And if he does put me on mostly AK it is still really dicey for him to call here with like JJ or even QQ assuming I have bigger pairs even some of the time. I do see people jamming like this sometimes and it's usually AA from old men who don't want to see a flop. Admittedly I've never tried just jamming Aces but it doesn't seem like it would get the desired call much.

----

Don't recall who asked this but sLAG is slightly loose aggressive not super loose aggressive. So if a TAG has VPIP/PFR/3B of 16/14/4 a sLAG might be 20/18/6 while a full blown LAG is more like 27/25/8

So this guy is an aggressive and slightly loose player but closer to TAG than LAG I think.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote
06-26-2018 , 08:08 AM
I wasnt talking about how you play. Ive never seen anyone 4 bet to a fairly small size and showdown anything but AA/KK. Never seen it.

In this hand you 4 bet to $250 and the guy folded. You mentioned you 4 bet once to $200 with T9s and the guy folded. Maybe you should be 4 betting larger with AA so they dont assume you have AA. Try a bigger size with AA next time. They might call assuming you want a fold. That was my point.

It doesnt matter if you change your size depending on your hand if they never call and see your hand.
2/5 Playing super premiums vs a squeeze: flat or 4 bet AA in position? Quote

      
m