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Old 11-18-2018, 12:48 AM   #1
KT_Purple
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2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Villain 1 has been open raising about 50% of hands. I've played with him a couple times before but I don't recall him being this loose so perhaps he is tilting a bit.

Earlier I called MP with 87dd while he was on the BB, flop was 8h4h3d, villain led for 50 into 80, I call, turn is the Th, he bets 150, I call, river was the Q of clubs, he checks, I check and my hand is good vs Ah3c

I thought pretty long about the turn and the reason I flatted was because i thought he was so much wider and his range didn't really have much board coverage and i wanted to see what he'd do on the river

Villain 2 is a reg who knows me pretty well, knows I'm one of the better players in the room and will give me due respect.

Villain 1 (1200) raises to 25 from the CO, Villain 2 has the button (1700) raises to 100, hero covers and finds 33 on the small, the BB is a young girl whom I've never played with but has about 1400
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:07 AM   #2
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

I mean....if you want to get super sticky and 4b be my guest but 3 ways 33 in the sb is probably a fold. If I know the bb is calling via reads and I'm super deep I might set mine but that's still -ev for sure lol
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:23 AM   #3
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

I’m sure you know the correct answer here
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:04 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Fold pre lol. Quickest PAHWM ever.

If they are both playing the top 50% of hands we aren’t even ahead in terms of raw equity, we are OOP, and we aren’t closing the action.
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:23 AM   #5
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

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Old 11-18-2018, 03:29 AM   #6
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB



imo
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:45 AM   #7
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Pondering over the charade ChrisV is a lot more difficult than the decision in the hand.

Fold pre, don't think twice.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:37 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

well that was fun

hero folded and all is well

Spoiler:

Last edited by KT_Purple; 11-18-2018 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:51 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Where are your implied odds if he’s super wide/light here? Either his range is nutted and we are setmining with big implied odds or he is wide/light and we are playing for the value of one pair being good.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:54 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

not great vs the reg but probably good vs tilty CO, I actually think call is the worst play on the table but all things are fairly equal here, are we folding 66? what pairs are we playing? I actually have an extremely narrow calling range here that probably only includes 33-55 but lets not expect villains to know that. 33 has direct showdown value in this spot I think and if I 3bet I do expect V1 to fold over 90% of the time and v2 to play cautiously with a lot of preflop folds, but, no blockers

if it means anything, most of the regs know I can play extremely loose but how to range me on a small blind flat call to a 3bet? I only have a tiny set of hands here but do not expect either player to know what that range is (pocket pairs only)

Last edited by KT_Purple; 11-18-2018 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:04 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

The "best players in the room" are folding this.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:39 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

The 2nd PAHWM this week where I find a fold pre, and pretty quickly at that. You will not realize your equity enough to call/continue.
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Old 11-18-2018, 12:17 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT_Purple View Post
well that was fun

hero folded and all is well

Spoiler:
V1 limped in the ex: you gave
here V1 open raises
V2 3-bets to $100 sure he can be wide

but what read had you thinking V1 folds or flats vs a 4-bet

now you got what looks like a good flop for you but can you sell it to V2?????

I'm C/R flop here based of fact OP states V2 will put him on small PP
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:40 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

First hand i called a 20 raise from mid position with 78 and villain defended his blind and led 50 into 80 with a pretty speculative hand repping top pair and semi bluffed the turn with a large sizing when it went heads up

carry on
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:05 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

What's your stack size? Do we cover?

V1 can have pairs as strong as JJ, sets, and flush draw with two overs. V2 is capped at over pairs and flush draw + overs.

Our relative position is terrible here. C/R is going to be super hard to get through on this board unless V's are weak tight, which it doesn't sound like they are. Also, you need a rock image to be able to get credit for a set, which I don't think you have.

I think the best line is a C/F here. V1 is checking 100% of his range to the 3-bettor so we gain absolutely no information on the strength of his hand.

Overall, we got decent implied odds to setmine since V1 came along. Now that we missed, we can get away for cheap without being in a spot where we are in a guessing game of what to do and end up bluffing off our entire stack (I'm assuming we cover, so that's $1700).

Let's not turn a neutral to slightly +EV situation preflop into an absolute disaster post-flop.

V's get super sticky in 3-bet pots and aren't going to fold unless they get the nut worst run out for their hand or have complete air. Unfortunately, we have no clue what cards to represent and even some of our cards to improve could be "dirty".

The hand becomes even more tricky if it checks through on the flop....

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 11-18-2018 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:18 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post

The hand becomes even more tricky if it checks through on the flop....
hero checks and it checks thru

now here i think we get into auto pilot mode just way too often...I have the best hand on the flop a lot, v1 probably always checks, and the button was lite to begin with and will give my flat cold calling range from the SB a significant amount of credit

not betting for value/protection is probably a mistake here, the more i think about it the more i hate it, I feel that we usually don't lead without at least 2 pair or a strong draw but now that everyone checks the SB, is it such a strong play anymore? sure we are at the bottom of our value range but still getting value from some hands, also it's going to be hard to get paid off when we improve

turn (300) Th

Last edited by KT_Purple; 11-18-2018 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:31 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Check again. V1's range is completely uncapped.

V2 has mostly air but could have hit the T on the turn if he 3-bets with hands like JTs-ATs (very possible being on the button versus a CO open).


You can't c/r here because now your line looks really FOS and V1's range could still be nutted unless he bets something tiny like 1/4th pot or something.


You can c/c to try and rep clubs but there is no gurantee that V1 doesn't have a club draw. Even if he doesn't have clubs, there's no gurantee he will fold something as low as top pair to you, let alone a flopped set.

C/F still best here...
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:52 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

I could find a C/C if bet is small enough
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:53 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Folding this pre and not even thinking about it twice.
You are OOP,
Iif your read on v2 are right do you every expect him to stack off even if you do hit your set?
If you are calling large 3bets with any pair you are leaking money here.
If v2 is 3 betting light with this hand I would just have to give it too him.

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Old 11-19-2018, 03:57 PM   #20
KT_Purple
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
I could find a C/C if bet is small enough
I think our opportunity to bet slid by on the flop and betting the Th is no bueno.



(300)

246T

Hero checks, V1 bets 100, V2 folds
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Old 11-19-2018, 04:09 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Piling money into polarized spots with small pairs OOP is exactly why getting into this pot preflop is a bad idea.

You're in a WA/WB scenario here (WA overcards, WB any overpair that makes a 3!, so 9s+), however if his range is somewhat uniformly distributed, this is a call on the turn as well. You have a lot of equity against his range, assuming all combos of overcards are in his range (V2 probably folded something like AJ/AQ here, so I'd guess that 25% of overcard combos are dead for V1).
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Old 11-19-2018, 05:37 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
Piling money into polarized spots with small pairs OOP is exactly why getting into this pot preflop is a bad idea.

).
this
but now that we're here

calling turn
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:07 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Like everyone else said pre is a fold. Obviously it makes sense to mix it up with V1, but your relative position and absolute position are both the worst they could possibly be in this spot. Preflop you aren't closing the action, and on the flop/turn/river you are the first to act. Not only that, but if/when V2 bets you have to act before you know what V1 is going to do in the pot. Obviously V2 didn't bet in this spot but often you're going to be forced to c/f on flops where normally you would call if you were heads up and in position.

Otf I'm c/f if V2 cbets because of relative position mentioned above. Probably c/f as well if V1 leads out and V2 folds unless there's a sizing tell or live tell.

The turn is interesting, because assuming V1 is raising and defending suited connectors and two/three gappers, random broadways, PPs, and random AXs hands, we're ahead of a lot of his range. In fact, including sets 66/44/22 we're still 55% against the following range:

99-44,22,AQs,ATs,A8s,A5s,KQs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T9s,97s+,87s ,KcJc,QcJc,Qc9c,Jc8c,AQo-AJo,KJo+

And against described villain it's very likely he will try to buy the pot ott, especially since no one has bet and it's been checked to him twice.

This is obviously a ****ty spot to be in and it's likely +EV to fold despite all that^, but I probably peel and see what happens on the river.
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:03 PM   #24
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

how do I get the sense this is a veiled brag where Hero shows some mad skillz on the turn or river and somehow walks backwards into winning a big pot and wants to show us how it's done
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:04 PM   #25
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Re: 2/5 PAWHM: 33 from the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
how do I get the sense this is a veiled brag where Hero shows some mad skillz on the turn or river and somehow walks backwards into winning a big pot and wants to show us how it's done
Probably after reading OP's hand histories in the mid stakes forum.
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