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Old 10-21-2010, 12:39 PM   #1
Sebastes Pinneger
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2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

2/5 - Line check please.

Tight mid-week daytime game, Hero's has been active pre-flop but much tighter post. Villain is unknown 25 year-old but appears to be a solid thinking player, betting scare cards and paired boards, pushing the Nits around.

Effective stacks for Hero and Villain $650.

UTG raises to $10, Villain calls in MP, HJ calls, Hero is on the Button with 78 $10, BB calls.

Pot = $50
Flop:T84

Action checks to Villain in MP, Villain bets $60.
Folds to Hero, Hero raises to $300.
Folds back to Villain and Villain tanks and shoves for $550 after 90 seconds.
Hero calls.

My thinking is Hero wanted Villain to know we are committed to this hand, but thought Villain would correctly weight our range heavily toward a draw if we just shoved on the Flop.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:53 PM   #2
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

Meh

Call...c/r shove turn if you want to play it this way.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:57 PM   #3
gharp
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

Stack sizes are a little hard to follow in this example. 120BB deep would be $600, you say the stacks are $650, villain's shove on the flop is $550 after a $10 preflop call...?

Assuming the action as written is right it looks like you have to call $250 to win about $880 (a bout 3.5:1). I think you're priced in and you need to call. Worst case he has a set and you have 9 outs twice. Best case he has a draw as well and you're ahead.
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:07 PM   #4
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O I hope the question isnt whether to call or not.

If you fold your burning money.
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:10 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

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Originally Posted by gharp View Post
Stack sizes are a little hard to follow in this example. 120BB deep would be $600, you say the stacks are $650, villain's shove on the flop is $550 after a $10 preflop call...?

Assuming the action as written is right it looks like you have to call $250 to win about $880 (a bout 3.5:1). I think you're priced in and you need to call. Worst case he has a set and you have 9 outs twice. Best case he has a draw as well and you're ahead.
Yes stack sizes are approximate.

Hero was committed and called the shove.

Interested in how you play the Pair+Flushdraw on the flop. Flat call, raise, shove?
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:25 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

My original post I meant flat...c/r shove turn.
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:33 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

You flopped the world. I don't see any other play than getting it in worst case versus a set (and he doesnt have that since he tanked so he either has a draw or an overpair).

Once you raise the $300 you can't fold, so the only question is whether that was a good play and I would say vs. all but the wildest players, this is the highest EV play.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:07 PM   #8
AintNoLimit
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

Against a player who has mindset he doesnt want to stackoff with a TP type hand only,basically super weak tight and our image is tight and tough, then i like the raise but not to this size. Taking lines/sizes that are totally unbalance able isnt a good habit to get into even if we dont have to balance vs this player.

Otherwise like flatting flop.

And if we are reasonably sure villain will stackoff most hands he cbets with here, then stacking off makes no sense at all.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:57 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

This line is meh.

If he has an overpair (which is likely) then equity wise, you are almost 50/50 on the flop. So from a math standpoint you have enough equity to make this play.

From a balancing standpoint and image standpoint you can make a great argument for this play benefiting you later (whether you win or lose).

Only problem I have with the play is the sizing. The only hand that calls your shove here is a hand that can beat you--overpair or a set.

I think that you can more or less get the same info and impact by just raising to $160.

Why raise $300 vs $160?

Was your goal to purposely pot commit yourself and/or take away villain's fold equity if villain came OTT?

Lastly, raising $300 turns your hand face up IMO. It screams flush draw to me which means if villain is at all decent, he's calling you with any overpair.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:14 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post

Was your goal to purposely pot commit yourself and/or take away villain's fold equity if villain came OTT?
Yes, I intended to pot commit myself and let Villain know as well we are committed to this hand. I also felt Villain to be capable of folding a over-pair, TPTK type hand for stacks over 100BB.

I wanted my bet sizing to appear to be for value and setting up stacks all-in on the Turn to Villain. This is what I was struggling with at the time and what I wanted help with per the line-check.

If I am raising and Villain comes over the top I was calling regardless so felt committing to be the best raising line.

I thought a little about flatting but against this aggressive Villain did not like flat calling.

Villain's range includes: over-pairs, TPTK, OESDs and all flush draws. Note that Villain flatted UTG's min-raise. I felt at worst I had 50% equity.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:59 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

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Originally Posted by rizasutton View Post
My original post I meant flat...c/r shove turn.
we are on the button....

There are also different cards which can fall on the turn....


I do agree with flatting though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:11 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
This line is meh.

If he has an overpair (which is likely) then equity wise, you are almost 50/50 on the flop. So from a math standpoint you have enough equity to make this play.

From a balancing standpoint and image standpoint you can make a great argument for this play benefiting you later (whether you win or lose).


Only problem I have with the play is the sizing. The only hand that calls your shove here is a hand that can beat you--overpair or a set.

I think that you can more or less get the same info and impact by just raising to $160.

Why raise $300 vs $160?

Was your goal to purposely pot commit yourself and/or take away villain's fold equity if villain came OTT?

Lastly, raising $300 turns your hand face up IMO. It screams flush draw to me which means if villain is at all decent, he's calling you with any overpair.
I don't know if I agree with this, mainly due to hero's sizing choice but maybe that's what your saying as well harris. I feel that a raise of such a size definitely gives away our hand and it's also unlikely that we are raising 5x with a set on this board. Maybe that's just me, but I don't see raises with nut type hands of much more than 4x, unless it's an AI bet, in live poker. I think that a lot of the time when we're raising on boards like this we're going to be semi-bluffing and I would prefer not having to put in all the additional $$ when a raise to 200ish does the job. I think we still put a lot of pressure on villain, get plenty of FE and can still get stacks in when we hit. We also have a good sized bet on the turn to barrel again with if villain flats flop.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:18 AM   #13
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

Seems to me the flop raise is too big. Villan is betting $60 into $50 multiway pot. This looks like a set, two pairs (T8), NFD, some kind of combo draws, and maybe TP.

Now, once you raise the flop, and if villan has a set, two pairs, NFD, combo draws, then all the money will likely go in by the turn any way. You don't have any Fold equity against these hands. So the only relevant issue is: how to maximize your profit against a TP type of hand.

I would raise the flop (with smaller size), and if called, shove the turn. But I would make sure the turn bet size is big enough so that if villan elects to peel one on the flop, he couldn't call the turn. I don't know about this guy, but most of the guys I've seen in live games can't fold TP on the flop.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:04 AM   #14
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

$300 is kind of a weird raise size, its way too big. if i think villain has something like k10 or q10 and is capable of folding then i like a raise to $160 total or something.

if he never folds, i just flat and see a turn.

as played, like you said your committed at this point and have to go with it.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:12 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer View Post
we are on the button....

There are also different cards which can fall on the turn....


I do agree with flatting though.
I guess we aren't c/r then
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:44 AM   #16
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Re: 2/5 - Pair+Flushdraw, 120BB deep line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastes Pinneger View Post
Yes, I intended to pot commit myself and let Villain know as well we are committed to this hand. I also felt Villain to be capable of folding a over-pair, TPTK type hand for stacks over 100BB.
This may seem a bit strange, but I think you could have folded out a TPTK or overpair by betting less, like around $160. But by betting more, you ensure TPTK or an overpair will call because they are more likely to put you on a flush draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastes Pinneger View Post
I wanted my bet sizing to appear to be for value and setting up stacks all-in on the Turn to Villain. This is what I was struggling with at the time and what I wanted help with per the line-check.
To me, your raise is not for value by any stretch of the imagination. It appears that you are trying to push villain off the hand via an overbet.

If you raise $160 and villain calls, pot will be $370 on turn and you and villain will have approximately $500 behind which means your sizing would be perfect for a turn shove. Your line would appear MUCH stronger with this approach and appear to be seeking more value rather than the flop overbet IMO.

What i'm sensing is that you just didn't want to take the chance of being outplayed by villain so you purposefully committed yourself. I just think this sorta thinking and line isn't +EV longterm. I feel that in this particular situation, you are lucky because the EV is more or less 0 (equity is probably 50/50 here). Basically, the reason I don't like it is because it:

#1, turns your hand face up
#2, doesn't allow for worse hands to call
#3, commits too many chips when a lessor bet accomplishes the same thing 90% of the time.

I could be wrong, but that is how I see this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TienXia View Post
I don't know if I agree with this, mainly due to hero's sizing choice but maybe that's what your saying as well harris. I feel that a raise of such a size definitely gives away our hand and it's also unlikely that we are raising 5x with a set on this board.
What I meant is that by overbet shoving in this spot, he is more likely to get action later.

Next time OP overbet shoves at this table, villains are going to put him on a semibluff. So, from a balancing perspective, if/when OP shoves later with the nuts, he is likely to get more calls or lighter calls. That is what I meant.
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