New to table. No real reads on Villains.

V1 in EP (550) opens to $25

V2 (1400) Calls

Hero (800) is dealt 7 8 on the buttton Hero calls

Flop: (80) J 4 8

V1 bets $50, V2 Calls, Hero Raises to $150, call, call

Turn (525): 2 check, check, hero shoves $625

thoughts?

take your free card on the turn, unless you're reasonably sure you can get 2 folds. (hard to know w unknowns)

I think the standard line is to check back turn but I like your line, especially if the players are somewhat competent.

I like the raise size on the flop and the turn shove. Neither villain has a set here or they would have shoved the flop (especially V2 who cold-called twice). Since V1 opened from EP and called a flop raise, I think his range is AA-QQ and AJ, maybe AK or AQ spades but you'd think he'd shove over your raise with his stack size. He seems to be playing this hand poorly.

I'm not sure what to put V2 on -- can't give him credit for two-pair here, and there's no way he'd call twice with one pair. Flush draw seems unlikely too, as he probably would have 3-bet with the nut draw and folded smaller draws to two other players. Could 9T be in his range here? Calling 50 and then 100 with OESD is certainly possible.

Since it's unlikely either of these guys have your two-pair outs covered and/or higher flush draw, and there's a decent chance they'll both fold, I like the shove.

I'd make it more like $250-275 OTF, which is very close to a PSB. This seems like it'll have much more FE as it obviously commits you to getting it in if the PFR 3-bets. It also lets you shove turn for a bet that will be less than but close to a PSB if just one of them call, which is pretty convenient.

As played turn is a must check imo. There's nothing that unknown LLSNL players "can't" have here; we can't handread that definitively before we have reads. The gist of the situation is that both players showed strength on the flop by putting in two bets,, and the turn card changed nothing. As such, double barreling would be bad as a default and you need specific reads to justify it.

You really think either of the villains could have a set or two pair? Seems like best case scenario, we get called by big flush draw, next best we get two folds and worst case scenario we get called by a big pair, making a shove very +EV.

If villain has AJ/KJ and won't fold to your shove, then it isn't a good shove.

I think it's definitely possible that one of them could have been planning to c/r you with a set, but yeah the biggest problem is not getting Jx to fold. Since you only beat Jx on the river when you bink, why not take the free card to wait to see if you're good before you get it in against them? You need a lot of FE to make this shove +EV.

Huh? There's no odds to call with a flush draw. If both have flush draws, the first to act will have to fold, then the second to act will have to fold. The only way one might call is if the first to act has a made hand, and the second has nut flush draw. In that case, you have essentially 0% equity.

I'd say most likely is one top-pair/overpair and one draw, so the real question is whether this is likely to cause a one-pair type hand to fold. I think most likely yes, unless he has seen you play draws very aggressively before. So seems like a pretty solid shove, unless you know they are calling staations.

I am not sure Aj/KJ is going to check/call a shove. Sounds like you have plenty of FE. While I think it would be better to GII on the flop, since that didn't happen, the turn is fine.

Your standard 3x sizing on flop is bad. Not only considering you do want folds here. But also dude flatted the 50 also.. Make it 235-265 and then stuff the turn

Yes, if it's 100% AJ/KJ calls, then it's not a good shove. I think that's a completely unrealistic expectation though.

Raise flop bigger and shove turn I likeee

I disagree. Villains are unknown - unknowns are usually bad players, bad players often can't fold top pair.

If OP said villains were TAGs, I would think differently. But I don't like trying to bluff unknowns off top pair.

most bad villans can find a fold with top pair for $600 in 2/5. They don't think in terms of bb or size of the bet relative to the pot.

However, I think v1 has qq here and will call

Would definitely want some reads before I tried anything like this.

Once your flop raise gets called in 2 spots and the turn bricks, I think you are getting called too often.

Hate it against unknowns. Once you raise the flop and they both call I'm just checking back and taking my free equity to the river. And hoping to hit an 8.

Flop raise is a little small. Would make it $225.

If they do call shove keep in mind our 7 and 8 are alive as well

Grunch,
I'd like a larger raise OTF, the sizing isn't even a PSB. I ideal result of a semibluff is to get folds. IMO, size accordingly. You're bet prices out normal draws, but there's lots of implied odds with these stacks. That said, your line looks almost ideal to me.

I like the concept of this line, but I don't think it works out in this particular situation.

On the flop, I agree with the consensus that you need to raise more. Your flop raise isn't even a half pot sized bet, so V2 in particular is going to be priced in with all his draws. However, there's another consideration...

The more you raise on the flop, the smaller the SPR gets. After the raise to 150 on the flop, V1 has 375 left on the turn. If V2 folds flop, the pot has 425 in it and V1 will already have less than a PSB left. If we make it 225, if V2 folds then the pot has 525, just like what happened, except V2 is out of the hand, which strengthens the relative value of his single pair hands. The situation just gets that much worse if V2 overcalls.

Because the SPR will be so small on the turn, I think we have to throw out the concept of the second barrel completely and size the flop bet large. I would agree with those that said to make it around 275 on the flop, and then I'd be done with the hand unless I hit.

Bigger on the flop for sure (I think 200 is a psychological barrier, so I make it 250 or something), goal is to win the pot or get heads-up. Our equity goes down hugely in a 3way pot (very likely pair is covered by one player and draw is covered by the other). As played I think the turn shove is pretty awkward, but it's probably the best choice we have remaining. Wouldn't be surprised if Villain 1 gets married to Jx/QQ+, and Villain 2 gets "priced in" with Axss or T9ss. Just pull out your rebuy money and get ready for a volatile session (you have to capitalize on your newfound image as a "maniac").

I like a check OTT.
Idk if were getting AJ+ to fold here. On a board like that, your hand looks like a wombo-combo

Results?

Your line is too likely to be a big combo draw. If I am V1 I am looking you up with an over pair.

Prefer to use all of our equity as just a call on the flop and play in position.

Raising the flop is kinda the brute force way to play the hand. There are other hands that aren't nearly as good of a call that we could raise with.

We have a pair + FD: Raising will lower our SPR and take away the inherent value of having a hand that has lots of equity vs the stronger portions of our villains' ranges. We'll also effectively isolate ourselves vs the upper tiers of said ranges, whilst representing a narrow range ourselves.

Even after flatting the flop, we'd still have the option to use all of our equity as an effective semi bluff. Any 5,6,9,T, Q complete strait draws, 4x and Jx are dangerous as well; if we wait we potentially create more FE vs single pair hands by representing a wider value range ourselves.

Flatting the flop allows us to net an extra bet in the scenario above, but more importantly it give our villains more chances to make mistakes. Either one can be barreling/calling too wide and get themselves pot stuck (its a live player pool and we have lots $ cards).

This hand is played readless (which alone is its own topic), I'm not advocating that the above need go down all the time, but its surprising to me that everyone seems to think cramming the flop is the best play.