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Old 12-26-2016, 10:42 PM   #1
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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$2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

$2/5 casino, full table

Hero: TAG image, aggressive in LP, and active. A couple players already commented that I 'always' raise my button.

Table: Pretty high action. Lots of money shipping around. Three straightforward TAGs, one strong/creative TAG, one super deepstacked LAG, and the rest limp-calling passive donks. Most players 200BB+ deep. Effective stacks around $1400.

I'm going to skip some of the pre-flop PAHWM drama. One loose-passive limper in MP. Hero is in the lo-jack. I look to my left and the only good TAG appears uninterested and ready to fold in the HJ. I treat this like I only have two potentially active players behind me, one straightforward-nittish TAG in the CO and a donk on the btn. BB is also a loose-passive player who plays obviously.

Hero QT
1 MP limp, Hero raises to $20, CO calls, btn calls, BB calls, limper folds.
I tried to iso the limper. Massive fail. I went for a small raise because I wanted to play a high SPR pot. Most of the villains would call a $30 raise as often as a $20 raise. I expected to be heads up or three-way more often than not.


Flop ($80) QT4
BB checks, Hero?

Comments on the preflop action and flop decision?
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:21 PM   #2
Amanaplan
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

PF standard.

Everyone is betting between 40 and 65 post and no one is checking.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:29 PM   #3
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Bet $40.

QT is a hand that should be played in LP for a bet. Not usually a raising hand because it can't stand a lot of pressure. Great flop for you tho.

Last edited by Vespidae; 12-26-2016 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 12-27-2016, 12:00 AM   #4
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Good raise pre, I'm almost always raising this spot unless EP limper is super tight and is going to limp/call AK and such or there is someone behind who is apt to 3bet light. Good pre.


Post, I'd go $50 as a default, but there are some spots where I know that $100 gets called super wide and I'll go that big.
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:00 AM   #5
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

cbet 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
QT is a hand that should be played in LP for a bet. Not usually a raising hand because it can't stand a lot of pressure. Great flop for you tho.
are you suggesting it should be limped? What is a bet?
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:03 AM   #6
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Yeah, I kind of assumed preflop was non-controversial. I didn't want to breeze through the action though. I'll keep this moving.


$2/5 casino, full table

Hero: TAG image, aggressive in LP, and active. A couple players already commented that I 'always' raise my button.

Table: Pretty high action. Lots of money shipping around. Three straightforward TAGs, one strong/creative TAG, one super deepstacked LAG, and the rest limp-calling passive donks. Most players 200BB+ deep. Effective stacks around $1400.

Hero QT
1 MP limp, Hero raises to $20, CO calls, btn calls, BB calls, limper folds.

Flop ($80) QT4
BB checks, Hero bets $50, straightforward TAG calls in the CO, btn folds, loose-passive BB calls.
Ideally, both of the loose-passive targets would have called and I can go for three streets of value. The straight-forward TAG typically only puts chips in with strong hands. I don't know if he's capable of floating.

Turn ($230) A
BB checks, Hero?
Bit of a mixed reaction on the turn. I don't have top two anymore, but pick up a second-nut flush draw. Nittish-TAG CO might have played AQ this passively. He has ATs/KQ/QJ/KJ and maybe some JTs. I think he would have 3! pre with QQ+/AK. Can't rule out sets or QT. Hard to say how much the ace scares away worse hands from the BB if I bet.

What's the plan? Bet for value? Check with the intention of calling? Check and plan to raise?
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:06 AM   #7
Vespidae
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
cbet 55

are you suggesting it should be limped? What is a bet?
Yes, you can limp with QTs in late position. You "may" call a raise if you have at least 1 caller between you and the raiser and you are in position.
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:30 AM   #8
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie View Post
Turn ($230) A
BB checks, Hero?
Bit of a mixed reaction on the turn. I don't have top two anymore, but pick up a second-nut flush draw. Nittish-TAG CO might have played AQ this passively. He has ATs/KQ/QJ/KJ and maybe some JTs. I think he would have 3! pre with QQ+/AK. Can't rule out sets or QT. Hard to say how much the ace scares away worse hands from the BB if I bet.

What's the plan? Bet for value? Check with the intention of calling? Check and plan to raise?
that is a terrible card. The TAG can easily have AQ. Will he raise if you bet?

We're deep, I don't like calling a raise, should we keep the pot under control by check/calling? What do you tink the TAG will bet with AQ? If he bets hp, I check/call. I would hate to lead out and get raised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
Yes, you can limp with QTs in late position. You "may" call a raise if you have at least 1 caller between you and the raiser and you are in position.
never limping in LP with QTs after one limp (or several limps).
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:39 AM   #9
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
never limping in LP with QTs after one limp (or several limps).
I'm curious why?
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:57 AM   #10
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

I like it so far. I think I check/call the turn. Keeps the pot smaller and I don't want to call a raise, lets them bluff or bet weaker, and if they are ahead, we have outs.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:42 PM   #11
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
Bet $40.

QT is a hand that should be played in LP for a bet. Not usually a raising hand because it can't stand a lot of pressure. Great flop for you tho.
Everyone should ignore this. Until he can back it up.

Q-10xx, is 100% a raise here. Limping and hoping to hit is plain bad

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Old 12-27-2016, 01:45 PM   #12
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
Yes, you can limp with QTs in late position. You "may" call a raise if you have at least 1 caller between you and the raiser and you are in position.
I am curious why?

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Old 12-27-2016, 01:52 PM   #13
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
never limping in LP with QTs after one limp (or several limps).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
I'm curious why?
The limps equate to weak hands or small PPs. By raising, you have more than one way to win the pot. If not pre, then postflop.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:53 PM   #14
mikko
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Dam turn is poop sandwhich.

Leaning towards check/call. Still get value on river if he checks behind.

Very few rivers are going to hurt us.

Not sure we can call turn, and call river though. If he bets both.


Don't hate bet/calling $110 ish. Think his likely raising range from tag here. May very well be limited to strickly straights.

We have good implied odds on our outs. If he is holding KJ.

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Old 12-27-2016, 02:32 PM   #15
Vespidae
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Everyone should ignore this. Until he can back it up.

Q-10xx, is 100% a raise here. Limping and hoping to hit is plain bad

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Ok, so I have to ask why you think this?

QTs is in the top 10% of hands and is slightly less than 77 in terms of hand rank. And it plays better multi-way. I think Tommy Angelo said it he thought it made the most money of any hand played, but not a raising hand.

I also found this quote from Bob Ciaffone re QTs "... playable for a raise when you are in late position and the raise comes from the UTG or one of the blinds and there are one or more callers in between you and the raiser."

Is that not what I described?

And if you raise, are you calling a re-raise behind you?

Last edited by Vespidae; 12-27-2016 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Add quote
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:41 PM   #16
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

I opt for a x/c here.

Our hand is so strong and has a lot of equity vs hands that beat us like sets/straights so it would really suck to get x/r'd off our hand. I'm going for the x/c against many reasonable bet sizes and depending on who bets out. but definitely rather check here than bet. getting x/r here really makes life suck.

also makes me wonder what hands can possibly x/r here besides KJ? Just KJ/44? And would 44 flat on the flop? curious as to what others think here.

I would expect loose passive to play a hand like KJ this way a lot of the time, not sure about straight forward TAG but its also possible so we have to keep KJ in their ranges.


@Vespidae I am also almost never limping QTs in LP. If I get 3! in most scenarios I can easily fold this hand. If my hand goes 4 way I'm fine because it plays well multiway. We can't choose our opening range based on "do I call a 3! if I get raised?" We have an opening range that we call 3!s with and most of which we do not call a 3! with. There simply isn't a need to adjust drastically enough because there isn't enough light 3!/exploitation going on in these types of games. If we are at a table where we are getting 3! too much and feel like we are getting exploited, then we adjust (either tighten opening range, change seats, wider 4! range, etc)
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:43 PM   #17
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
Ok, so I have to ask why you think this?

QTs is in the top 10% of hands and is slightly less than 77 in terms of hand rank. And it plays better multi-way. I think Tommy Angelo said it he thought it made the most money of any hand played, but not a raising hand.

If you raise, are you calling a re-raise behind you?
For 1.

I think I make more money off guys who predictably raise a 5% range. Than any other type player. Your range is so easy to play against, and postflop skills are very limited.

Even adding Q-10 suited to opening range. Creates much tougher opponent to hand read (and range).

Glad I have never read Tommy Angelo book, by sounds of it.

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Old 12-27-2016, 02:45 PM   #18
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Yes in game with $1400 effective stacks.

I am likely to call 3 bet. But folding it alot also

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Old 12-27-2016, 02:49 PM   #19
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

When you consider bet/call, don't forget about the possibility that BB can be planning his turn x/r with KJ. It's not going to be fun if we bet $130, the TAG decides to stick around with his KQ, and the loose passive BB suddenly raises to $600 and cuts away at our our implied odds with up to 13 outs.

We're also drawing to the second nuts rather than the nuts. We have to keep in mind that one of these players will on rare occasions hold KJ and really have us over the barrel. For those sort of reasons I prefer to keep this pot small and x/c a reasonable bet on the turn.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:30 PM   #20
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Bet 125. You're in no mans land if you check. There's still value here even though you're blocking lots of pair+ hands with all 16 KJ combos in ranges. It may result in a bet-fold, but there are many other outcomes that make betting the best option. The TAG has more hands in his flop cont range than you've given him, many of them might flat turn as a dog. The passive BB will play straightforward.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:55 PM   #21
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

This is a c/c every time. Betting opens you up to getting blown off your equity, and as someone mentioned above, betting, having TAG call, and then seeing bb complete his c/r plan sucks a lot.

If TAG bets, we have lots of equity as well as some phantom outs (like an off suit J) if he's mubsy. And if TAG bets and bb raises, we can probably ditch our hand - best case we have 13 outs, any if which could be dirty if we're up against AT, AQ, or KXdd.

If it checks through, I'm betting non-ace, non-4, non-straightening rivers for like 60-70% pot. Think you get looked up decently often by naked aces or just a curious KQ.
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:17 PM   #22
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Pre's fine. I'd go 25 but whatever.

Flop sizing is good.

Check/Eval Turn.
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:24 PM   #23
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

pre: QTs is a good multi way hand, in LP here at 20 u dont iso much but raise for value, initiative and fold out some any2 from SB/BB


Flop ok

Turn we are 3 way, KJ/AQ might raise us.
only 6 cards in the deck can potentially put a 4straight OTR without giving us flush.
Imo betting here is value cut...

if you bet and he raises you can assume KJ/AQ there but he can potentially put a high price and we are oop.

So I lean toward x/c.
if it goes check check and no 4straight river i value river to get AJ/AK to call

if he bets turn i think we often got implied odds to call the turn siZe bet (or you add the times he got AK/AJ)

in a 3 way pot sandwiched in the middle our hand without improvements is OK for one more bet bUt probably not 1
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:25 PM   #24
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespidae View Post
Ok, so I have to ask why you think this?

QTs is in the top 10% of hands and is slightly less than 77 in terms of hand rank. And it plays better multi-way. I think Tommy Angelo said it he thought it made the most money of any hand played, but not a raising hand.
I also found this quote from Bob Ciaffone re QTs "... playable for a raise when you are in late position and the raise comes from the UTG or one of the blinds and there are one or more callers in between you and the raiser."

Is that not what I described?

And if you raise, are you calling a re-raise behind you?
I think you're misunderstanding Tommy Angelo's point re: QT. He saying he made the most money from a reciprocality point of view than his opponents with QT (in limit hold em). What that means is that when he compares how he played every time he got QT as compared to how his opponents played, the difference between the two was the largest as for any hand. The reason for this is because his opponents were losing significant money with QT, and he was folding it! Everyone played AA the same (betting) and everyone played 72 the same (folding) so when he folded QT and his opponents lost money with it, he viewed it as him making money with QT. He was definitely not saying that QT was the hand that he made the most money/won the most pots with. That would clearly be AA.
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:34 PM   #25
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Re: $2/5 PAHWM (sorta) flopped top two

Let's assume Tag is very solid player. What hands is calling turn with we are ahead?

KQ,QJ, AJ, Kd10d,

Maybe some
10J, K10

Am I missing anything?

Bet seems awful thin. That isn't a whole lot of combos.


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