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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 12-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #1
OvertlySexual
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2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Villain 1 is a whale who plays every hand and donks pot if he connected in any way. Villain 2 is a reg who I think is relatively straighforward.

Hero is dealt AQ

Hero raises 20 UTG.

Villain 2 calls MP1

Villain 4 calls from CO

Villain 1 calls from SB.

Flop (80) 69T

Villain 1 bets 40, Hero calls, Villain 2 raises to 140.

Villain 1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn (500) 3

Villain 1 checks, Hero checks Villain 2 bets 335, Villain 1 folds.

Hero?

Here's my thought process. We are deep. I have around 2k behind me and while I don't know how much villain 2 has, it's definitely more than 1500.

Villain 2's range seems nutted to me. 78, 66, 99, TT maybe JT and even more unlikely KJ.

I don't have direct odds to call. I am afraid however that I don't have implied odds to call. If I hit my flush and I check, Villain 2 probably checks back. If I hit my flush and I bet let's say half a pot, there's a good chance villain folds; it's tough for me to hold any bluffs in that spot as well.

OTOH, AQ seems like an incredibly strong hand and it feels very nitty to fold it.

What do I do?
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:00 PM   #2
tmo1120
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

based on description of V1 I think you could raise the flop when he leads into you; if V2 cold calls or 3!'s behind you can gain some information about his range and proceed accordingly;

This is a tough spot on the turn but I think we should rewind to the flop and consider raising V1's wide leading range;

If you are up vs nutted range w likely no FE or IO the times you make your flush then folding isn't so bad, your over cards may be outs as well depending on the player type
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:02 PM   #3
MikeStarr
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Played fine so far...now fold. He bet too much to call. Good for him. Next hand.
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:16 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Played fine so far...now fold. He bet too much to call. Good for him. Next hand.
Flop is not fine. Flop is super weak.

This is the top bluffing hand we can have to raise with other than possibly QJss. His range is weak and we only have A high.

Raising should get V behind us to fold Top pair hands as well as the rest of their random equity.


Obviously the V behind us woke up with a monster. But barring we don't run into 2pair + we our printing money by raising the flop.
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:55 PM   #5
OvertlySexual
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

I thought about raising, but I didn't for two reasons. First, the flop doesn't hit my range that well. More importantly, because it hits my opponents' ranges so well, were I to be 4bet I would probably have to fold and sacrifice the ton of equity I have in the hand. I would prefer turning my hand into a bluff on the turn after ranges have been better defined. In general, I think multiway play especially this deep requires to be more snug.

Let me put it another way: If it's HU, especially against this villain, I am very happy to raise and play for stacks. Multiway, I am a bit more hesitant. I could be wrong though.
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:39 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

I totally agree we want to get this V heads up here so that would be the ideal result of raising the flop, generates folds is ok too; but yeah if someone 4!'s you OTF I feel like it kinda turns into a math problem , it does suck when you get 4! here and this board will hit their ranges pretty hard;

I feel like you rep an OP heavy range by raising flop so when 4! behind by a different player other than guy who led , they should be pretty damn nutted at that point so at least you'll know what your up against in that worst case scenario
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:11 PM   #7
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Donít raise flop. Call turn.
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Old 12-23-2018, 06:57 PM   #8
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Flop seems like a super std call.

Turn meh, almost always folding. We need around 28-29% equity here and having Qs blocks his main combo draws
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:41 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

If you truly have no IO, then fold.

I'd much rather call here with AKs here where we don't block the obvious semi-bluff of QJss.
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Old 12-24-2018, 06:25 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

More pre being so deep and raise flop over calling for me.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:04 PM   #11
bodybuilder32
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Results oriented tards saying flat the flop.

Im about the least GTO guy as there is, but if you don't raise this flop then you literally have zero bluffs in your range. It probably wont matter to the whale, but a 2/5 reg will notice.

When we are this deep, I want to be in a position where I cause my opponents to make a mistake. We have the type of hand that can threaten to play a very huge pot, and we are wasting this opportunity to play small ball. Im sure your image is snug so take advantage of it.


Also, ff the whale doesn't have atleast a set or better (which is very likely since his range is so wide) then we aren't going to make very much $ if we bink our flush.


In deepstack poker you need to take advantage of the extra FE that big raises carry.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:11 PM   #12
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

When 4 people see a flop you should have zero bluffs.

This is especially true on 9Tx flops.

Aside from that, you can have a 100% flatting range and still be balanced. Which isnít what weíre doing here of course. We are trying to realize EV in a hand that went 4 ways when all villains can easily have 4 different kinds of nuts (bottom set, middle set, top set, straight).
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:30 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 Nut Flush Draw Deep

Everyone saying raise flop seems to have forgotten that this is a 4way flop. We don't need to balance because we shouldn't be bluffing into 3 opponents. And our biggest value here comes from overflushing someone, which won't happen if we raise flop and convince people to fold smaller FDs.
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