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2/5 NL: what does this table talk mean? 2/5 NL: what does this table talk mean?

09-26-2013 , 10:42 PM
New table that opened up within the past hour and a half or so. I bought in for less than the max in order to get to know my opponents and have won more than my fair share of pots just by getting dealt good cards, nothing fancy. Current effective stacks are right around $500.

Villain in question is not someone whom I've ever really played against but I've certainly seen him around. He is a solid regular and is respected by several other regs. I know that he occasionally plays bigger but I'm not sure if that is only when the games are good or a bankroll thing or what. He is a well dressed, 30ish guy wearing sunglasses, and it is the middle of the day during the week. He may or may not play for a living, idk.

On to the hand:
Villain makes it 25 utg and it folds to me in the co. One of the blinds was a little on the loose side which may make for a wider opening range from utg if he is as good as I think he is but I don't really know for sure.

I 3bet to 80 with KK,I haven't 3bet the villain before but he seems to think I have. I did raise his limps many times over the past hour, I had a good hand almost always but none of them went to showdown so he may think I am too laggy.

As the blinds are folding he says, "you must think you can keep raising me and I will just keep rolling over and laying down all night." I responded that I really haven't raised him much at all. He thinks for maybe two seconds when it is his turn to act and then flats.

The flop came down JT3 villain grabs a few greens looks at his stack, looks at the flop, looks at me, and then says, "i check." I only note that he spoke his action because before this hand he was on the quiet side and probably would have just checked silently.

I cbet 95, he thinks for maybe 5 seconds and says, "I'm all in."

Your action: what do you think of his table talk, what do you do and why?
2/5 NL: what does this table talk mean? Quote
09-26-2013 , 10:44 PM
he flopped a set
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09-26-2013 , 11:14 PM
I also think the talk indicates strength but he started it before the flop. I don't think he makes it 25 utg with threes so I can pretty much rule that out. I think his preflop range for that size and position plus the call will look something like {88+, T9s+, Maybe KQo+} this range is really just a guess though since I haven't played with him much.
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09-26-2013 , 11:27 PM
Call
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09-26-2013 , 11:42 PM
Even if his range at this point is only TT+, JTs, KQs, you're still getting good enough odds to call. If he'll ever get here with KQo, it's a hugely +EV call.
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09-26-2013 , 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
As the blinds are folding he says, "you must think you can keep raising me and I will just keep rolling over and laying down all night." I responded that I really haven't raised him much at all. He thinks for maybe two seconds when it is his turn to act and then flats.
He's acting weak here - he's implying he has a weak hand.

"You must think you can keep raising me because I'll give up my weak hands, like the one I have now."

So I think he's strong and has AA a lot actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
The flop came down JT3 villain grabs a few greens looks at his stack, looks at the flop, looks at me, and then says, "i check." I only note that he spoke his action because before this hand he was on the quiet side and probably would have just checked silently.
Eh I dunno - how do you think he said it? With disinterest (he's strong) or aggressively (he's weak)? I'm not sure there's much to glean here. He said "I check," that's not so strange or unique.

I do think the first quote is more telling - again, he's trying to say something like: "I'm opening with junk, and you've been raising me, and this time I'm taking a stand with my junk hand!"

So again, it's probably not junk at all, and AA wouldn't surprise me.

Either way, regardless of this attempt to soul read his words, I think you need to fold to his flop c/raise. A set is possible, AA is very possible and it's actually a good trap if he thinks you're too aggressive here.

I don't think QQ/AJ/worse/air is really likely at all. You're beat and can't call even given the odds.
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09-27-2013 , 12:36 AM
KQ, TT, JJ here. There's a possibility V does this with QQ, but it all depends on how much you have C-bet flops in the previous hands. If you have C-bet many flops, then yeah, he might show up with QQ here. If you have mixed it up, then he probably doesn't.

Either way, it's 330 to win 680. I'm calling here but expecting to lose 60+% of the time.
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09-27-2013 , 11:38 AM
I really think you shouldn't have responded with the line that you really haven't 3 bet him much at all. If anything that tells him you have a hand you like, and most likely aren't bluffing. The speech, and then the check raise all in is a big pocket pair. I would say Queens or better, but most likely Aces since it's less likely he has Kings. Sometimes this could be a spazz out play with maybe AQ, but I would say that is rare. It's not often you hear the comfortable table talk from your opponent, and it not represent a big hand.
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09-27-2013 , 11:53 AM
You'll learn eventually that talking about a hand during hand is almost always negative EV an will get into your head.. Call and stack his QQ
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09-27-2013 , 11:55 AM
What it really comes down to is your heads up in a three bet pot against a villain who thinks your too laggy.... Use your image to your advantage and snap call here... You only have 100 big blinds this is simple...... If he flopped top two or a set nh... His range is a lot wider than that IMO and you must call
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09-27-2013 , 11:56 AM
Willy is a donk
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09-27-2013 , 12:08 PM
I agree with most of you, I snap called and don't regret it. I am just relatively new to the live scene so I was wondering how much you guys think table talk plays into your decisions.
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09-27-2013 , 12:16 PM
The poker hand, table talk notwithstanding, is an obvious snap-call. Try to not respond to jabs at the table; play your game, let the donks play theirs, and get paid off.
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09-27-2013 , 12:17 PM
I don't usually care for results but I'd like to know what his weird mannerisms meant in this spot

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums
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09-27-2013 , 12:20 PM
Him starting to talk this hand when he has been silent indicates strength. However live tells should only be a part of your rational for a given action. Betting patterns and ranges are more important. His table talk shouldn't significantly influence your decision, when it is close this information can be very helpful.

That being said, if he is "good" most players won't x/r bluff shove on a JT board because it hits your range so hard.
I think this is a fold without more information about his bluffing tendencies. He isn't shoving QQ for value here....
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09-27-2013 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S
Even if his range at this point is only TT+, JTs, KQs, you're still getting good enough odds to call. If he'll ever get here with KQo, it's a hugely +EV call.
Not many combos of KQ left...
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09-27-2013 , 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwel87
The poker hand, table talk notwithstanding, is an obvious snap-call. Try to not respond to jabs at the table; play your game, let the donks play theirs, and get paid off.
Why is this an obvious snap call? What is opponents range in you opinion?
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09-27-2013 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
Villain... is a solid regular and is respected by several other regs. I know that he occasionally plays bigger but I'm not sure if that is only when the games are good or a bankroll thing or what.

Villain makes it 25 utg and it folds to me in the co. One of the blinds was a little on the loose side which may make for a wider opening range from utg if he is as good as I think he is but I don't really know for sure.

... He thinks for maybe two seconds when it is his turn to act and then flats.

.... I cbet 95, he thinks for maybe 5 seconds and says, "I'm all in."
This is an easy fold. Did anyone even read the OP? I quoted some key sections above. The ranges people are throwing around ITT for a very solid player raising to 25 from UTG... then flatting a 3-bet to 80 oop... are just way off. This is AA 80% of the time. It's never QQ. The flop check/shove destroys you. This is like a stack-a-donk line from villain, don't fall for it.
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09-27-2013 , 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
I think his preflop range for that size and position plus the call will look something like {88+, T9s+, Maybe KQo+} this range is really just a guess though since I haven't played with him much.
What makes you think that's his range? T9s? KQo?

You really thinking he's calling off 16% of stacks oop with a mid suited connector? A weak K? A mid pocket pair like 88 or 99? Not a chance. Does he even raise KQo to 5BB pre-flop UTG?

His call oop actually makes very little sense with any reasonable hand. If he's really "taking a stand against you," calling a large raise oop is really NOT the way to do it. Not at all. He's screwing with you. Most of the time, this is a trap with AA. His talk suggests the same. And his flop check/shove is the clear evidence you need.
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09-27-2013 , 12:49 PM
Can you even imagine that?

Villain is a good, solid regular who plays higher.

He says - OK son, I'm taking a stand against your raising!

.... and we think that means he's flatting a large raise oop with 99? KQo? Think for a bit.

No way. That doesn't make any sense. He's very strong pre-flop.

He destroys you on the flop - and by the way, he probably called pre-flop to check/shove any flop, so think about that, too. That's why a set isn't really likely and AA is extremely likely.
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09-27-2013 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeJamin
Quote:
Even if his range at this point is only TT+, JTs, KQs, you're still getting good enough odds to call. If he'll ever get here with KQo, it's a hugely +EV call.
Not many combos of KQ left...
Yeah... PokerStove takes that into account. If that's his range, it's a +EV call. (Whether that's a reasonable range or not is another question.)
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09-27-2013 , 12:58 PM
AA ? How often is he flatting AA vs 4!
This isn't AA nearly as much as people are saying and def not 80% of the time.
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09-27-2013 , 01:02 PM
Call. He's super weak. Probably AQ.
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09-27-2013 , 01:21 PM
usually when someone picks up chips and checks, they do not want you to bet.... that being said, if the V thinks you know this he may be leveling you with a monster. TT and JJ are def in his range, as is AA -

this is a really gross spot - crafty players will play AA this way 100BB's deep all day -
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09-27-2013 , 01:28 PM
Come on you guys are wayyyy to nitty... You have KK in a heads up three bet pot with 100 BBs... You've out in 175 of your 500 and now you are going to fold? Wtfff if he's a good player and perceives you to be lag his range includes a lot of hands we beat... But throw that all out te window and its still a call. He has qq here a lot I the time or Ak. Anyone who thinks this is a fold belongs playing a 1/2 game either because they don't have the proper bankroll or the proper skill set to be playing 2/5.... Call his all in... And then win or lose... But keep your head held high that you did make the correct decision
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