Hero has about $350. Been playing very tight. Probably seen as a rock, but others are suspecting that hero might know something about poker. Villain sat down recently. MAWG, seems pretty meh. On the looser side, a bit spewy. But we haven't played any pots together and I don't have a lot of reads on him, other than gut instinct/impression.

Villain has about same amount of chips.

Hero in SB with AKo. I decide to raise preflop to 25. Get two callers, an EP and the Villain in MP. I often just limp here with AK, not sure why I raised, but it seemed like a good spot to pick up the pot preflop. Of courase this table was playing loose so people call lots of preflop raises.

Anyway flop comes AKQ rainbow. Dream flop. I check. EP checks. Villain bets 40. I coyly call. EP folds.

Turn is a 3. I check. Villain bets 60. We each have about 250 left. Hero?

(I'm posting this because I'm wondering if it's ever ok to just call here and hope he bluffs river. Problem is a lot of his range contains Tx and Jx so we are giving him a free card. But it might be the best play in the long run, mathematically speaking. In that sense I think this is an interesting scenario)

bigger pre-flop, we're OOP entire hand and we have limpers, not even sure how many, could be a real big mistake going this small, but for now it's a minor one.

Bet flop, Bet turn, Bet river. Why the unjustified FPS?

C/c flop c/r turn is a super weird line, you're getting a lot of weak hands to fold.

You probably now have to c/c turn and b/f river. If you think his range is mainly PPs, it's good idea to c/c river as you'll get no value from Betting) Don't make poker harder than it has to be.


I also would like you to start talking about villains limp range.

Pretty sure you're the only person suspecting yourself of knowing anything about poker.

Your read is that table is playing loose, and you think 5bb raise OOP against 2 limpers is going to get them to fold?

Why do you think it's best play mathematically speaking?

If it is best mathematically, why would you ask what to do in this scenario? And if it is already proven that checking is better, how would this scenario be interesting?

I was going to comment on that, but I gave the benefit of the doubt that maybe he was hearing some table chatter.

hahaha lol...

Definitely going bigger pre, $35 if it's just the two limpers +$5 more for every other limper.

Always limping AK is a big no bueno. If you like limping it for what ever reason, try only doing it with the suited ones. They play better mw.

Continuing the aggression on the flop is a super easy to play line, makes sense, will get lots of calls from worse hands etc. Either this guys has a hand that will pay you, or he doesn't. Are you hoping for him to bet 3 streets for you with a hand worse than top two?

Worst possible line getting to this turn decision IMO.

We have less than 100BBs and top two. Bet as large as you think will be called until you have no money left to bet with.

I have to defend my play a little bit. Considering I've played a lot of poker in my life and I'm a winning player.

AKQ flop smashes my range. If I lead into two players here they're both folding most of their weak aces, their bluffs, and only calling or raising with hands that have me crushed. Remember I have a tight image.

If I check, it gives MAWG the chance to bluff. Which is likely what happened.

So on AKQ you are only getting called by JT or QQ?

If you are dead set on your belief/read, then het are you asking what do to do turn. C/c 3 streets or lead rivers.

Slightly more pre. You want callers because you're raising for value, not bluffing.

The SPR is ~4 and you can get stacks in with two PSB. Villains rarely bluff a flop like that. I'd bet for value. Checking is ok if you anticipate a bet and plan to check-raise.

I think we've gotten off track. Probably my fault for not framing the question properly.

In a vacuum, should we play the turn the way I played it, or a different way (considering that my play on the flop and turn check is the same). Assuming that my first play is a check (you can disagree with this, but just for the sake of hypotheory, go with me on this)

So assuming we have the best hand on the flop and turn 90% plus of the time, but with a chance of losing (or being forced to fold to a horrible river), we have two options on the turn after we check and villain bets.

1. Call
2. Raise all in

If call, we give him a free card to draw to a broadway, or to a good bluff card if he doesn't hold a T or J in his hand. But we give him a chance to barrell the river for his last $250 or maybe less if he doesn't know about SPR.

If raise all in, we are most likely folding him out and shutting the hand down, collecting the decent sized pot.

There are 8 cards that we hate to see on the river. A Queen would also be a bad card. So let's say there are 11 bad cards that could hit on the river where we would check and possibly give up.

There are 46 unseen cards. 11/46 is 23%. So there's a 23% chance we end up losing what's in the middle. There's a 77% chance we end up winning a lot more money in the hand by letting him bluff (or value bet) the river. Or we could donk at the river and confuse him but I don't really like that play.

As played, it's a pure judgement call. Knowing if the call down line is a good idea or not really depends on knowing villain's play style and how he might play river.

There are more villains where raising turn is best then calling but a lot of those wouldn't have bet turn at all. You have already described villain as a bit spewy and villain already bet a flop and turn on a board that should hammer your preflop raising range. My inclination is that raising now is still best but at this point not strongly.

OP never told us how many people limped. Only how many people called his raise. The number of limpers makes a big difference in the correct preflop raise amount.

I probably check more flops that hit me than most people after raising preflop, but I would never check this one. Anyone with any experience knows your approx range when you raise from the blinds. They know this flop hit you. Anyone who is dumb enough to bluff this flop is also dumb enough to call with any ace. They could easily have a worse 2 pair or a pair and a draw. Bet the flop next time please.

Yes to this. The whole hand should have gone differently on your part.

I understand that you are a winning player and it's just the turn decision that's really what is perplexing you, so I have to ask. Where do you play? Just curious.

I mean, if you don't know whether to call and "let him draw" or bet and "make him fold", the answer is you bet. You hope he makes the wrong decision and calls, but god damn, you bet.

Holy guacamole around here...

Lol. Just lol.

coyly call....that made me lol

but anyway, pot is 275 after you call the 60. you have about 225 left. why not just C/R it to 150? that will make the pot 455 with only 135 left in your stack. if he calls the C/R, it is all goin in on the river, no matter what it is.

Pre flop is table dependent, but $25 is the smallest that I would raise with AK in the blinds.

Post flop just B/B/Shove. If V has JT, then pay that man his moneyz.

OP, around these parts, it's never a good idea to say something like, "okay, I messed up the flop, but don't bother with that, tell me what to do on the turn."

You didn't raise enough pre-flop.
You did not not lead in the flop.

These mistakes led you to where you are on the turn now. The only hand that is beating you is JT, assuming the other player doesn't limp/call hands like QQ or better.

Your SPR on the flop is around 4 and you have top 2. You're not folding. Go for value.

If you think these guys will call your preflop raise with a weak ace and then fold TPNK to a cbet, I have a bridge to sell you.

I would of lead turn real small - like $50 - it's a pretty bluffly line but the problem was the flop smashed your range.

Check / call / lead line is generally weak, but it will be hard to get ton of value vs worse, so I think small bets might be the best line to take.

As played, just call, and lead river for like $70 or just rip it in now - he will have to pay you off with a ton of 1 pair hands that he would normally fold if you just call.

OP, imagine you're on a table full of loose-passive fish that have a tendency to call too much, bet too small and miss value bets. What do you think is the best strategy to exploit these players the times when you have a strong hand? Do you check to them in the hopes that they'll do the betting for you, or do you bet aggressively in the hopes that they'll call you down too loosely? I want you to really think about that.

To put this into context: loose players do a lot of limp/calling and not a lot of limp/folding, so why not punish them for that by raising bigger preflop with your premium hands? When you flop top 2 on a board where the only realistic hand that beats you is JT (assuming that they never limp/call QQ+ preflop), you have fat value, rather than showdown value. Your goal is to get stacks in, so your only decision is regarding what the easiest way to do that is. Do you think that x/calling is more optimal than betting aggressively?

It is highly unlikely that any villain will pull a double barrel bluff here. They might bet when checked to, but given that this is a multiway pot, even that is unlikely. There are so many hands that would be willing to call a bet here (maybe even 2 or 3 streets!) but will often go into showdown value mode when checked to. Those hands are: Ax, Kx, Jx and Tx. So often, you'll find that hands like A5s and KTo will call down here but will almost always check back. So you really want to be betting here for value.

To give you a tl;dr version of how I would've played this hand:
Preflop: raise to $40
Flop: bet 80% pot
Turn: bet 80% pot
River: jam the rest in

Where I'm from, we bet our dream flops.

Just call. No need to be coy about it. WTF, Is this some sort of poker romance novel?

lol nice.

This hand is a bit of a mess.

Limping AK pre is symptomatic of rockiness, so you might want to decided whether or not the other players' perception of you is accurate.

Congrats for being the first person responding to the post.

Ever heard the term "walking back to Houston?"

Where I'm from, people only say "where I'm from" in old western movies.

And if you want to censor my posts, go to North Korea. It's a free country, now, maybe, since the 8th.

Haha I just looked it up. That's pretty funny. I'm not saying you should overplay AK, but raising with it even OOP is more than standard. Going to the flop multiway because you didn't raise pre sets you up for some rough times with TPTK against a field of 4 limpers.