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/ NL: Spew Check / NL: Spew Check

02-26-2014 , 06:01 PM
$450 eff (I have $450). The table has 3 horrible young LAGs/maniacs who constantly duel each other and are engaged in some sort of a penis measuring contest which plays out on the felt. They never say it verbally but they're obviously trying outdo each other in "moves" and "coolness". They're all very deep in $1000-$3000 range each and a typical hand would go like this:

LAG 1 fires 3 streets with bottom pair. LAG 2 triumphantly calls off 3 streets with middle pair and takes the pot. On and on and on. Between the 3 of them they're playing nearly every hand and this is 9-handed full-ring. The rest of the table are loose-passive fish who will call off raises with trash preflop see the flop and then mostly bug off unless they catch middle pair, some draw or better.

Compared to the table my image is that of a total nit although I'm really not that tight. I'm getting comments like "this guy has played 4 hands in 4 hours", etc. Even the 3 amigos have noticed and adjusted to me by refusing to pay me off on several hands while they would gladly pay each other off.

One of the 3 bad LAGs straddles every time UTG to $10. We'll call him V.

I get A9s in BB. V straddle raises to $10 and there are 4 calls before it gets to me. I go for the squeeze and make it $80. Everyone drops off but the V who hates to give up his straddle and calls.

Flop: T73r Pot ~$200

I fire $100 and V calls. I've seen him call flop many times with nothing or bottom pair so it doesn't mean he has much or anything. He also loves to turn bottom or middle pairs into bluffs.

Turn: Q Pot ~$400 My line has been consistent with AA-QQ and Q is in my perceived range. I also know that if I check, V is almost guaranteed to ship with ATC. I'd rather shove with A-high than call with A-high. So I feel that I almost have to ship here. I ship remaining $270 and V insta-folds.

I know that building a big pot with a marginal hand and then continuing to build it with air goes against "common wisdom" but somehow I felt that this is the only right line once my $80 squeeze got called given my nitty image and given the board texture that very likely missed the villain or gave him something very marginal at best. I was also OOP against the V. With all that said it somehow feels that this was the right play?

Last edited by Olaff; 02-26-2014 at 06:08 PM.
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02-26-2014 , 06:08 PM
Don't give results in the OP.

Is there a question, or are you just sharing a hand history?
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02-26-2014 , 06:12 PM
I think it's fine if villain is the type to float a lot of flops but give up on later streets without a strong hand - at least against you. I'd be careful not to do it so often that villain adjusts though. Maybe do it when you pick up equity; like a backdoor flush draw, or straight draw.
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02-26-2014 , 06:30 PM
You used your image and stole a pot, you should of showed the 9
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02-26-2014 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed
You used your image and stole a pot, you should of showed the 9
+1 .. not much to add here ... right play in the right situation. GL
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02-26-2014 , 06:42 PM
This is an acceptable spew.

Although if you know he hates giving up his straddle I probably just call pf.
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02-26-2014 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trucdouf
This is an acceptable spew.

Although if you know he hates giving up his straddle I probably just call pf.
What do you mean by an "acceptable spew"?
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02-26-2014 , 06:59 PM
Looks good
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02-26-2014 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaff
What do you mean by an "acceptable spew"?
The reason is that if he calls, you'll show you aren't a nit and will get more action. If he folds, you win the pot. But it is spew because you won't beat his calling range. You bluffed with the best hand most likely.
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02-26-2014 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
But it is spew because you won't beat his calling range.
What do you mean? A bluff is not supposed to beat any calling range.
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02-26-2014 , 08:42 PM
Trying to squeeze preflop with A9s against a straddle who hates to give it up was a mistake. Plus, your bet size was actually a bit too big. Against these sort of hyper lags, you need to size your bets to insure you have a reasonable bet on the turn because they are calling the flop almost every time.

After that your line is an OK bluffing line since you have a nitty image. If you get called your crushed, but the turn bet sizing was just enough to get some FE. You might have gotten 99/88/7X to fold and smaller hands probably fold. TX or better is calling just because of pot odds though, even if they figure to be behind. That is where bet sizing could have been better. If you make it $50 preflop, you can c-bet $75 on flop and you have a much effective pot sized shove on turn.

Just don't try this very often. These types are not going to fold a whole lot and they are going to start trying to pick off your bluffs quickly if your shoving into them very often.
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02-26-2014 , 09:00 PM
seems fine. i think this type of V floats a lot (almost his entire range) so even if V did have a pair on the flop the Q is a great card to barrel. i think you play works if A K Q fall ott, if any other card comes i think a shove would get called a lot more often.

wp tho
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02-27-2014 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Trying to squeeze preflop with A9s against a straddle who hates to give it up was a mistake.
Why? His range on the straddle is ATC. His calling range of my $80 is stronger but I believe A9s is still way ahead of that "strengthened ATC" range. And if he had a premium, meaning AQ+ or TT+ he'd repop and I'd probably fold.
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02-27-2014 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaff
Why? His range on the straddle is ATC. His calling range of my $80 is stronger but I believe A9s is still way ahead of that "strengthened ATC" range. And if he had a premium, meaning AQ+ or TT+ he'd repop and I'd probably fold.
If villain is really bad enough to call preflop and flop with all but the worst garbage hands and your willing to commit to carrying through with an all-in bluff no matter what, it is an OK play if used very rarely. Against a competent villain you get more folds, but your stuck playing a marginal hand OOP in a bloated pot if he does call. You will have trouble getting worse to call or better to fold, and you will only find out which it is after putting in a large chunk of your stack.
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02-28-2014 , 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
If villain is really bad enough to call preflop and flop with all but the worst garbage hands and your willing to commit to carrying through with an all-in bluff no matter what, it is an OK play if used very rarely. Against a competent villain you get more folds, but your stuck playing a marginal hand OOP in a bloated pot if he does call. You will have trouble getting worse to call or better to fold, and you will only find out which it is after putting in a large chunk of your stack.
OK let's construct his range. TT-AA, and AJ+ are out as he would 4-bet (and we would fold). Of course this is a bit arbitrary but let's pick the best of his non-premium range and assign his range then as:

99-55,ATs-A9s,KJs+,QJs,ATo,KTo+,QJo

Stove it vs A9s. A9s is at 52%. If we drop Ax combos and 9x combos from there due to blockers then we're even higher (or maybe PokerStove does that automatically, not sure). And that assumes he uses some kind of selection and doesn't just decide to gamble with ATC. So basically even if he calls we're not behind.
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02-28-2014 , 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Trying to squeeze preflop with A9s against a straddle who hates to give it up was a mistake. Plus, your bet size was actually a bit too big. Against these sort of hyper lags, you need to size your bets to insure you have a reasonable bet on the turn because they are calling the flop almost every time.

After that your line is an OK bluffing line since you have a nitty image. If you get called your crushed, but the turn bet sizing was just enough to get some FE. You might have gotten 99/88/7X to fold and smaller hands probably fold. TX or better is calling just because of pot odds though, even if they figure to be behind. That is where bet sizing could have been better. If you make it $50 preflop, you can c-bet $75 on flop and you have a much effective pot sized shove on turn.

Just don't try this very often. These types are not going to fold a whole lot and they are going to start trying to pick off your bluffs quickly if your shoving into them very often.
this
just call pre with a9s, especially at this table where if you flop big (2pr+ or big draw) you will get paid
i.e. bad lag with 6high flush draw will stack off lol on K72hh board
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