Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowdownValue
It doesn't matter that we have 2nd pair on the flop. This is really a question about how we would play our entire range in this spot. This isn't really a good flop for H's perceived range and not because I believe H is beaten frequently. H has so many JJ+, AQs+, AKo combos that it'll be extremely difficult for us to get any value from V. Maybe, V will call a flop bet with TT-JJ, but that's such a small range of hands for us to extract value when we can occasionally check this flop and allow V (whom OP described as having an aggro vibe) to barrel all of his bluffs, some of his 88-JJ combos, A9, T9. This line is only useful if our plan is to call down on the river. C/f seems kinda bad imo. And b/f doesn't seem much better.
And as for the bolded portion... Why are you happy to turn QQ into a bluff? I'm not happy about just taking it down here. I'm still near the top of my range, so why wouldn't I want to maximize my value?
Exactly, i agree on the bolded part.
But we disagree on the conclusion. We are not on the top of our range at the flop anymore, come on. Preflop yes, but on a K high dry flop no. Any K is beating us now like KJ or KQ, as well as a flopped set. If we have AK,AA or KK we are on the top of our range on the flop, but not with QQ anymore. I am C-betting this flop close to 100 percent of the time if i hold AA or KK/AK, so i also want to bet it with hands like AQ or JJ-QQ. In my opinion we can get very transparent with our continuerange postflop if we get into the habit of check with our weak hands after 3 bet and keep betting with only our strong hands: if our villains are just a little bit observant we will loose tons of value when we flop huge and our villains all too easy can put us on a big hand.
I understand that you want to keep villains bluffs in the hand and i really like that argument, but we are OOP and can be facing with some very difficult decisions on the turn/river if we check and villain barrell heavy into us and we have absolutely no clue were we are in the hand= we are navigating blind in thick fog and that is something i really hate to do, especially in a bloated 3 bet pot.