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Old 04-14-2018, 07:06 AM   #1
livegamelive1
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2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Villain in the hand is a good player who plays 5-10 usually. Weíve played together only once before and Iím not sure she remembers. Tonight, Iíve been there 2 hours and she has 3-bet three of my opens, showing down AQ and AJ in two of them against somebody else. We havenít really played a pot of substance but sheís been running over the table a bit. I hadnít shown down anything at all or been too active.

Folds to me in the CO and I open AQhh for $20, button calls, villain in the SB 3-bets to $120. Iím $1,050 effective with both Button and Villain in the SB. I was going to 4-bet here to $310 but ultimately decided in to call in position. Would be interested to hear from others on that. Button folds.

Flop comes QJJ rainbow and she checks. Given we didnít have much history and Iíd been pretty snug, blowing her off a lesser hand by betting here seemed unnecessary and keeping Qs in my checkback range is useful so I check. Turn is a 7 bringing a fd. She checks again and I bet $150, she calls. River is an offsuit 9 and she checks. Hero ...?


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Old 04-14-2018, 07:19 AM   #2
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Pre is super std, 4b with AQs is awful when you can take a flop IP. Good regs 3b linear generally from SB, so you want to keep their ranges wide.

Flop im betting unless there’s a heart, so we can have some flop checks with bdnfd. Checking is also fine, i think both plays have merit and shouldnt some much difference in ev. I also think good regs are checking KK/AA/JJ here a lot, so i dont mind a check to strengthen our checking range, induce spaz from 87s/airballs that are looking to give up but delay cbet if we check.

Turn is obv bet.

River is must bet, you cannot be checking here
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Old 04-14-2018, 07:26 AM   #3
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

With the dynamic described, and given that she have been 3 betting you a good amount so far- its tempting to 4 ball the AQ suited here in position, wich is an adjustment i like. Given that you say she is a good 5-10 reg, she is very likely 3 betting a pretty wide range of hands being over 200 BB deep playing smaller than normal for her. So AQ suited should be doing well enough against her range to justify a 4 bet.

Its also somewhat important to fight back with a 4 bet in these scenarios from a metagame point of view regarding the table: so that the whole table doesent get an impression that its possible to just run over you relentlessly with repeated aggression, because that can make your life pretty difficult later on too if youre playing a long session/cant tablechange for whatever reasons.


As played i am valuebetting this river small,because i put her on a weak range at this point given dynamics and how the hand played out. She have been aggro so far and builded up that dynamic of her being the aggro bully, so it would make no sense at all for her to not keep pounding on with aggression and get called lighter than normal if she had a nutted hand here like Jx. Chances of her checking all 3 streets here in a 3 bet pot OOP with a good hand is very slim in my opinion. I would bet/fold like 200 ish on the river.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:07 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Its also somewhat important to fight back with a 4 bet in these scenarios from a metagame point of view regarding the table: so that the whole table doesent get an impression that its possible to just run over you relentlessly with repeated aggression, because that can make your life pretty difficult later on too if youre playing a long session/cant tablechange for whatever reasons.

This articulates well why I was considering a 4-bet.

On to river, I always find that people make the mistake of checking back here too much. Determined not to make that mistake, I bet $250.

Villain thinks for 30 seconds, then shoves all in. Hero...?


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Old 04-14-2018, 08:19 AM   #5
Ranma4703
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Yeah versus a polarized range I'm more ok with a flat pre, but vs a linear range I would prefer a 4bet. Flatting some of the time as well, if you 4bet all your AQ than you are going to 4bet too much. When you 4bet you are hoping for a fold

Turn I think you bet too large, I would go about 1/3rd pot on the turn, then on the river I'm going closer to full pot. As played, I think her range is too strong to go huge on the river, I'd bet like $280 or so
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:22 AM   #6
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Originally Posted by livegamelive1 View Post
This articulates well why I was considering a 4-bet.

On to river, I always find that people make the mistake of checking back here too much. Determined not to make that mistake, I bet $250.

Villain thinks for 30 seconds, then shoves all in. Hero...?


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Easy fold at this point. Checking 3 times in a 3 bet pot and then suddenly check-jam the river after equities are fully realized after you bet both turn and river isnt exactly a line many regs (or any players) use as bluffs. Infact its screams strength.

This is something like 4 jacks, or rivered nines full.
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Old 04-14-2018, 09:02 AM   #7
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Easy fold at this point. Checking 3 times in a 3 bet pot and then suddenly check-jam the river after equities are fully realized after you bet both turn and river isnt exactly a line many regs (or any players) use as bluffs. Infact its screams strength.



This is something like 4 jacks, or rivered nines full.

I think she likely leads quads jacks because Iím checking back many hands so I felt it really had to be 99 or the occasional air ball. I ended up levelling myself into a call because of the price, I felt underrepped, and a hand from a few weeks before where I was bluffed in a somewhat similar spot by somebody else was playing in my head. But the call was very bad, I see that as clearly now as I wish I did then! Nobody is bluffing enough to make this profitable.

She had 99


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Old 04-14-2018, 09:48 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Originally Posted by livegamelive1 View Post
She had 99
And V is firmly in the midst of a substantial heater.

Sorry man that is gross.
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Old 04-14-2018, 09:54 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

I wouldve just checked back on the river. A good higher stakes player is going to play AA/KK like that most of the time and they wont be calling a river bet with much else anyway in a 3 bet pot. I dont see her calling a river bet with hardly anything you beat. Even KQs probably check/folds the river.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:28 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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I wouldve just checked back on the river. A good higher stakes player is going to play AA/KK like that most of the time and they wont be calling a river bet with much else anyway in a 3 bet pot. I dont see her calling a river bet with hardly anything you beat. Even KQs probably check/folds the river.

Iím not sure about that. I see even good players take passive lines like this and call down pretty light knowing how they look weak to the opponent. I think this is a bet.


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Old 04-14-2018, 11:30 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Im not saying you cant bet but if you do you absolutely have to fold to a check raise.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:48 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

V can easily have AA/KK here looking to potcontrol/induce on an average board for their hand, plus theyíre not calling river with worse anyway, so against a non-ABC reg, you can surely just check back this river.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:13 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

I would always bet flop there but as played I don't see how you'd fathom she had 99 there. Would she have shoved had you 4! pre? If so, that's a balls out player i am glad i don't have to play lol
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:54 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Folds to me in the CO and I open AQhh for $20
4BB seems like too big a raise in late position with a strong hand. But if you expect action, then I think it is good.

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villain in the SB 3-bets to $120. I’m $1,050 effective with both Button and Villain in the SB.
One reason to 4bet would be as a bluff, but Villain doesn't have any better hands that would fold to a 4bet. Eg. AA, KK, QQ and AK are probably not folding.

Another reason to 4bet would be for value. I don't think you'll get much action from second best hand type stuff that you dominate. Possibly AJs and KQs, but that's about it.

If you think Villain has a wide 3bet bluffing range with a bunch of weak drawing hands, and is the type of player who wants to continue with that stuff versus a 3bet, perhaps there's some value to be had. But I wouldn't expect many calls from a Villain who is a good player and is OOP. I'd expect more 5bet bluffs if anything.

As for calling versus folding, calling definitely seems like the better choice. Villain seems to be 3betting a bit wide, so there's a good chance you have a card edge. But even if AJs is the bottom of her 3betting range, you have pot odds and position.

Quote:
Flop comes QJJ rainbow and she checks. Given we didn’t have much history and I’d been pretty snug, blowing her off a lesser hand by betting here seemed unnecessary and keeping Qs in my checkback range is useful so I check.
You can probably get some value from AK, pocket pairs, and straight draws. She might fold out smaller suited connectors. I'm not sure what she'd do with her suited aces. So ultimately, I see a fair amount of value to be had.

But on the other hand, if you check back, you may still be able to get two streets of value. She may want to get aggressive on the turn as a bluff. If not, she still may want to call a bet. On the river, you could get value from her two barrel bluffs, but the drawing part of her range that missed would no longer give you value, so there's that downside.

I think either approach is fine, but I think you'd maximize value by betting here in order to get value from her draws.

Quote:
Turn is a 7 bringing a fd. She checks again
Yeah, definitely need to bet this one for value after the flop checked through.

Quote:
River is an offsuit 9 and she checks. Hero ...?
She really looks like she has some sort of showdown value type hand. I would think that she'd have made an aggressive move earlier with her value hands and draws, and that she'd lead the river with her completed draws. I'm just not sure what sort of showdown value hands she could have. QT? Q9? TT? A7? 88? 66? Smaller pocket pairs? I guess there's some, but not too many. And I'm not sure that she'd call with all of them.

So this seems like it's somewhat of a tough decision, but I just don't see much of a downside to betting, and so I'd go for a thin value bet.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:10 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
With the dynamic described, and given that she have been 3 betting you a good amount so far- its tempting to 4 ball the AQ suited here in position, wich is an adjustment i like. Given that you say she is a good 5-10 reg, she is very likely 3 betting a pretty wide range of hands being over 200 BB deep playing smaller than normal for her. So AQ suited should be doing well enough against her range to justify a 4 bet.
Even if she is 3betting really wide and AQs crushes her 3betting range, I think it's important to consider how she'll react to the 4bet. I feel like she'd be 5betting or folding her weaker hands that we crush, not flatting with them. Flatting is a bad play given that she's OOP, Hero's 4betting range must be assumed to be strong, and implied odds aren't big enough to justify set mining or anything.

Maybe it's a good think to get her to fold the drawing stuff that we beat, but I wouldn't mind playing in position versus a LAG against a range I crush.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:20 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

V is a very, very good player. Neat.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:22 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

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Originally Posted by adamzerner View Post
Even if she is 3betting really wide and AQs crushes her 3betting range, I think it's important to consider how she'll react to the 4bet. I feel like she'd be 5betting or folding her weaker hands that we crush, not flatting with them. Flatting is a bad play given that she's OOP, Hero's 4betting range must be assumed to be strong, and implied odds aren't big enough to justify set mining or anything.

Maybe it's a good think to get her to fold the drawing stuff that we beat, but I wouldn't mind playing in position versus a LAG against a range I crush.
I dont mind a call in position either with a playable hand as AQ suited, its certainly +EV and the somewhat "standard" line i would guess for most of us.

That being said i also still like a 4 bet here with described dynamics. She have 3 bet us already 3 times regarding to info in OP, so its certainly about time that we swing the 4 bet hammer at her: and AQ suited is a good candicate to do it with. If she folds alot like you said here, its a good result for us taking down a decent sized pot preflop uncontested- instead of us flatting the 3 bet and we miss alot of boards with our AQ, where she is gonna C bet a huge amount/take the pot down alot.

I am not really concerned with villain 5 bet bluffing into us at any frequenzy at all. She have no reason to believe we are out of line if we 4 bet here for the first time in our dynamic with her(we could very well have KK/AA or AK that were planning on felting with in this spot), and if we make it like $320 or something- she have to basically ship on us if she is gonna 5 bet due to stacksizes. And i dont think she is very likely to do that light or as a bluff, because she would have no reason to believe we are messing around or that we are planning to fold to a 5 bet ship.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:58 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Glad this hand got some good discussion. Definitely some interesting options with merit pre, on the flop, and river. I think we all agree turn is a clear bet but different ways to go otherwise. Wp to her


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Old 04-14-2018, 09:05 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 NL - line check against good reg, different questions on different streets

Im betting the flop. You can consider checking back the turn if called. On the river you are basically at the bottom of your value betting range, so I think folding this hand is fine. Save the hero calls for KK or a J.
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