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Old 05-17-2019, 05:26 PM   #26
barney big nuts
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

nice to know i'm not the only nit who wanted to fold
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:12 PM   #27
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

When a tight nitty player in UTG+1 raises the straddle who's first to act pre, and a thinking player who's been seen flatting AK pre several times and has been playing tight lately 3bets the nit to 2.5x and it's folded to us (with an unknown stack size but let's assume we're 200bb's deep also) with an upper medium pocket pair I would fold without even thinking of it as a "nitty" fold. He probably showed up with queens here.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:13 PM   #28
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

FFs if you think this is a nitty fold, I'd actually consider folding QQ here, too. Frankly I think JJ is a trivial fold and QQ is a tough spot.

We are massively owning their horrible pre-flop strat by folding JJ here.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:30 PM   #29
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Cool Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

I like how basically the entirety of the thread said pre was standard at the beginning and now everyone’s saying it is obviously standard. Being viewed as a nit has a bad connotation lol. A little surprised GG didnt say anything.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:55 AM   #30
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

he would probably fold kk
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:36 PM   #31
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Mostly lurk nowadays but had to post because this thread is pretty good for several reasons. To me, it shows how subjective poker is and actually is a good example of why its so interesting. Lots of decent players have different thoughts on the same spot.

When I read the OP and he mentioned V being a former action guy that he has seen flat AK it didn't mean that V never raises AK. To me, its the description of a laggy player that has mixed it up in the past (but we don't know how much of a past they have). We are usually dealing with small sample sizes and just because an action player has flatted with AK doesn't mean we should take AK and AQ out of their 3b range.

I fall in the 4b/fold group because of my concept of V based on the description and being OOP. If TC provided more info about V's 3b history I'm sure it would make the decision easier for most of us because it can be a fold depending on the player for me. How often does he 3b?

I'm 4 betting JJ in the SB all day here against laggy people whether they have flatted with decent hands in the past or not. So long as it isn't an OMC type standard nit that is only 3 betting KK+ I'm putting in a 4b about the size of TCs or slightly less. I prefer to have the fold equity against a player that has any sort of thinking agro tendencies because they are usually able to 3b with some hands that JJ has beat. If its not a 4b, because V is a nit, I'm folding because I don't like burning money from the SB trying to set mine or hero call several streets with JJ.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:32 PM   #32
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
Mostly lurk nowadays but had to post because this thread is pretty good for several reasons. To me, it shows how subjective poker is and actually is a good example of why its so interesting. Lots of decent players have different thoughts on the same spot.

When I read the OP and he mentioned V being a former action guy that he has seen flat AK it didn't mean that V never raises AK. To me, its the description of a laggy player that has mixed it up in the past (but we don't know how much of a past they have). We are usually dealing with small sample sizes and just because an action player has flatted with AK doesn't mean we should take AK and AQ out of their 3b range.

I fall in the 4b/fold group because of my concept of V based on the description and being OOP. If TC provided more info about V's 3b history I'm sure it would make the decision easier for most of us because it can be a fold depending on the player for me. How often does he 3b?

I'm 4 betting JJ in the SB all day here against laggy people whether they have flatted with decent hands in the past or not. So long as it isn't an OMC type standard nit that is only 3 betting KK+ I'm putting in a 4b about the size of TCs or slightly less. I prefer to have the fold equity against a player that has any sort of thinking agro tendencies because they are usually able to 3b with some hands that JJ has beat. If its not a 4b, because V is a nit, I'm folding because I don't like burning money from the SB trying to set mine or hero call several streets with JJ.
This. When I read the V description, it definitely didn't read like a nit to me.

I probably could be V. Used to play way too aggressively, now trying to think more and generally tone it down. I will also occasionally flat AK (even in bad spots), particularly when I feel like I'm running bad. That definitely doesn't mean you should see his 3-bet range as nutted, he probably *mostly* 3-bets AK still (especially in position).

Definitely not folding JJ here, I'd expect it to still be in decent shape against his 3-bet range. And flatting gives V1 good odds + gives up control of the hand. So I 4-bet. I might just size down, since I think $280 or so has the same effect but we lose a bit less when he 5-bets.

AP, after turn checks through, I'm going for thin value OTR. Especially on a paired flop, I expect V to be a non-believer who won't fold 99/TT. Plus, if he does, there's some value in not having to show. I'd also much rather put in a small bet myself than have to call a polarized bet from him. We should mostly be good here AP—really the only hand I could imagine is slow-played QQ.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:55 PM   #33
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by krilleater View Post
Definitely not folding JJ here, I'd expect it to still be in decent shape against his 3-bet range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
I'm 4 betting JJ in the SB all day here against laggy people whether they have flatted with decent hands in the past or not.
Just curious, does anyone ever take into account the original raiser, a tight guy raising UTG in a straddled pot (which the 3bettor should also know this info as well), or are we only playing against the 3bettor and forgetting about him?
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:29 PM   #34
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
Just curious, does anyone ever take into account the original raiser, a tight guy raising UTG in a straddled pot (which the 3bettor should also know this info as well), or are we only playing against the 3bettor and forgetting about him?
OP gave a very specific range for UTG which isn't overly tight, certainly not so tight that I'd want to be folding here.

Obviously if he comes over the top we can fold easily.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:43 PM   #35
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
Just curious, does anyone ever take into account the original raiser, a tight guy raising UTG in a straddled pot (which the 3bettor should also know this info as well), or are we only playing against the 3bettor and forgetting about him?
I think a lot of people just ignore this in close spots. You have two people with relatively tight ranges and both ate uncapped and could have you beat. 4b/f JJ is pretty meh too. If some guy is opening only around 10% of hands, there are a lot of hands he’s probably willing to continue with (QQ+, AK+) and there are very few live 3-bettors who would squeeze more than 5-8% in this spot

Also, nobody said anything about assuming the 3-bettor never has AK or we should take it out of his range
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:40 PM   #36
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

fold pre but im going with qq here no doubt

also looks like i was wrong and hero was right this hand given the action
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:52 AM   #37
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Fold>call>4b. Sizing is also way too big.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:08 PM   #38
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by krilleater View Post
OP gave a very specific range for UTG which isn't overly tight, certainly not so tight that I'd want to be folding here.

Obviously if he comes over the top we can fold easily.
OP said V1 is tight and nitty post flop with an UTG range of 77+ and AJ which doesn't equate to a tight player. If he raises to 40 UTG after a straddle with 77 or AJ, he's not tight. If he's tight, he's probably opening AK+ and TT+ first to act after a straddle. And idk if the OP said what his stack size is so it might not be so easy to fold to a 5bet.
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