Been at the table a little over an hour. I bought in for $500 and worked my stack up to $1100. The first big hand I 3! KK from the BB over a couple limps -> raise -> call, PFR called and I x/jammed an A72dd flop and held vs. JJ. Second hand I opened 88, flopped a set on A84hh flop, bet got two calls and GII on a Qx turn vs. a smaller stack who had A9.

Villain is a 30's Asian but not the gambooly type. He is the only player at the table that seems competent. He's been getting involved in some pots with the fish when possible but I haven't really seen him go to showdown. His stack hasn't moved much from the ~$1500 ht had when I sat down.

OTTH

Effective Stacks: $1100

Villain opens to $20 UTG
UTG+1 calls
Folds to hero in SB
Hero raises KK to $80
BB folds
Villain thinks for a bit and raises to $200
UTG+1 folds
Hero ... ?

So this was a bit unexpected. Our options look like: nit fold, 5!/fold, 5!/call, call the 4! and commit on favorable flops, call the 4! and x/f to further aggression. Frankly, I just don't see 4!'s often enough to put this guy on a wide range, especially opening UTG.

not folding.

If we 5bet, we're committed pre. no question about that, so there's no 5bet/fold option. I would feel better about getting it in vs him than a bad player or fish in this spot anyway (who I know will have AA).

I would call and plan on continuing or getting money in on favorable flops rather than folding out the bottom of his range but I don't mind 5bet/calling either. It's only 200BB's and we do have kings vs a non nit.

I would nit fold and save your chips for the incompetent players.

5b/fold is crime. 5b/gii or call both possible. Only be aware that when he has AA prolly gets your stack either pre or post, dont regret it, call pre is most to keep his weaker hands in range.

Yea. If $20 UTG is a steep o/r in that game, with me being OOP, I probably have to put him on AKs/o or AA/KK. Where I play, it's standard with a range of JTs+/99+/AQo+ from most players.

But if you believe it's much stronger, that means you have to believe the guy is 'protecting' his AA & doesn't want to go 3-way to the flop. This could be the case if he doesn't want a player acting behind him postflop. Or, he has AK & believes you will either fold, or c/c & check the flop if you miss, thus giving him a 'free' Turn card should he have AK and choose to back off. That's if he gets UTG+1 to fold, which he did.

If you think he could be holding JJ & you just call pre & the board comes Q74r, etc. & you check & he bets $300, are you going to believe there is no way he could have made it $200 pre with JJ?

If the board comes J74r & you bet & he raises, are you going to believe there is no way he raises with QQ and call?

If either one of those board types come & you check & he bets, are you going to believe he wouldn't have bet the flop on those boards with AK?

I hate being OOP & if he's the only competent V at the table, what's the point of getting involved unless you think his range is, at a minimum, QQ+/AKs/o. And then you to believe that if the flop comes Q74r & you bet $300 & get raised, you can safely fold.

Imo, based upon your comment " Frankly, I just don't see 4!'s often enough to put this guy on a wide range, especially opening UTG," I would fold.

There are 8 players at the table who are not competent to feed off of. But then I really hate playing OOP in this type situation.

However, if you flop a set, will you make a lotta' $$$ if he has AA?

Just to clarify for those who are saying we shouldn't 5bet/fold.

Are you saying that we shouldn't ever 5bet without the intention of getting it in pre since we think his range is pretty wide?
Or that 5betting is just a bad idea here overall?

There is plenty of room to 5bet for $475 or so then fold to a jam if we wanted to.
And if we thought there was value there against a wider 4bet range.
But a 6bet is always Aces. lol And against Aces getting only ~1500:620 we can def just fold.

Having said that, we should never 5bet here because there is not value.
Folding might be best, but I could be ok with flatting also.

we should never 5bet/fold pre putting in over 25/30% of our stack, especially with a premium hand. If I 5bet I'm getting the rest in which should be determined before deciding to 5bet.

People do 4bet/fold if they think you're light with a wide range (AK, AQs, even 99), and he's supposedly a good player.

I would fold if he was a nit in a heart beat.

I would do the opposite. If this guy was incompetent and a fish who we know only has aces, I can fold but since he's one of the top two players at the table (which can't really be determined in one hour but it is what it is) I know he has 4bet bluffs in him if he thinks hero can 3bet light,

Maybe he's testing hero with the 4bet which is why I would lean towards a flat, as much as I hate flatting OOP.

I kinda agree 5! is a poor choice here unless we 5! shoved to try and look bluffy but I still don't know if that gets us looked up enough by his AK/QQ/JJ (if he's even 4! that light).

The other problem with 5! to an appropriate amount is that stacks are so shallow that villain will/should just flat his AA and call it off when we shove the flop.

Being OOP and shallow sucks the big one here. Can folding actually be best?

Folding isn't horrible if you don't have reads this deep. 200BB is just too deep to get in KK pre vs an unknown and calling is just awkward.

As played I probably call, but not going to like it and will expect to lose this hand and be shown AA a fair amount of time.

IF you 5bet will he ever get it in with AK or QQ?


To be honest,when I get over 200BB I sometimes don't even 3bet KK vs UTG and UTG+1 opens at full tables and i've won a lot more $$$ because of it at times. I wouldn't suggest doing it much, but I have done it.

Jesus. If you're playing against the Vs in these hands then just open shove KK and print.

On a more serious note...with just so little info available, blocking AK, and assuming no extraordinary gameflow dynamics in play (tilt, level-wars, etc), you may actually have
a -ev 5b w KK. It's also likely way too early in the session and the hand itself to determine whether calling is <0EV at 220bb. You could run the math pretty quickly if you're convinced you're set mining only here, but if you give him a few other hands (that could conceivably size this way) then I think the immediate near 3-1 on a call makes your decision pretty clear.

lol you know what, I think this is actually a fold. We arent getting odds to setmine, nobody 4 bets with anything other than KK/AA live, especially as an UTG raiser and especially against a 3bet from the blinds. I mean, there's just no conceivable way to play this hand properly. I dont think I've ever been in such a situation oddly enough, but 200+ BB deep and it's pretty clear there is going to be more action postflop, what are you going to do? If you call the flop is going to be $400+, he's going to bet 200-300 and now what? The only possible thing you could do would be to check raise jam.

Just take a deep breath, and realize you only lost 16 BB's this hand. 15.5 really since that SB was involuntary. There are much better spots than this. I mean honestly if he somehow showed QQ or AKs to make you feel better thinking he had you beat, dont even let it bother you. This is a very minimal annoyance.

Op have you 3! At all other than KK?

If he's only seen you 3! Once and show down KK in that goofey hand then he has no reason to be very wide so I wouldn't expect a very linear 4! Range. It's a question of whether he's got some AK maybe QQ.

A nitty fold at first glance, provided it was done without much fanfare and obv without showing, seems defensible based on a population read of a guy who's stack isn't yo-yoing, hasn't gotten out of line, seems competent and will have position postflop. So I don't hate that we are considering it.

5 betting seems to serve no purpose here as we don't really want him to fold his 8 combos of AK or possible underpairs if he is 4! Wider than KK+ So I agree that 5! Isn't a good option.

If he has the hand we fear, odds to set mine are actually getting close. With the current pot + villain stack we are getting a little better than 10:1 with a good chance he stacks off on a K hi flop. So while as a straight set mine it may still be unprofitable, if we feel he may be wider than KK+ I think it gives us enough back up to call.

Obv oop we can still ending up folding the best hand postflop unimproved to significant aggression if we don't commit and we have no info on his post flop play. We can assume he's cbetting most flops so the question is: call/commit favorable flops, call/X-call flop eval turn action or fold.

If you expect him to bomb his entire range on all flops I don't think calling without committing is a profitable option and if we have no evidence he will 4! Stack off 220bb < KK+ the call commit plan isn't very attractive.

If you think at least some of the time he will tip his hand with a check or weak bet on some flops (i.e. Play very straightforward) I think we can still profitably call here recognizing we may be behind and that even though when ahead we may still X/fold the best hand some otf. We only need v to play face up with worse a fraction of the time to justify being sticky here.

It feels like call>fold>5!

Call, and plan on stationing until all your chips are in the middle.

This is a pretty sick hand but he also got the ultimate board to slowplay on. Basically kept Mr. Clean's range as wide as possible while widening his own. Played well for sure but obvi a healthy dose of positive variance.

I actually 3! one other time. 3 limps, rec fish makes it $15 from MP/LP, I 3! QQ to $65 from SB and table folds. So the hand in question is now my third 3! in about an hour to an hour and a half.

What's goofy about the KK hand? Second pair + K nut BDFD + SPR 1.7x + blocking AK + giving V a chance to bet worse seems like no brainer x/jam.

You mean you would expect a linear range, correct?

Good thoughts here otherwise. He hasn't been active enough post-flop to have a read on how he's going to play, certainly not as the PFR or 3!/4!er. One or two single raised pots he c-bet and took it down as PFR and he also won a multiway pot IP with a flop bet after checked to him but other than that not much to go on.

I think being readless with how much he is going to bet on the flop is the worst part. He could go as little as $150 all the way up to $450+ and we just don't know what it means.

Regarding the KK jam "goofy" hand. I think you can't think of it as to whether or not it was goofy to you (i.e. KK, nut BDFD, SPR, blockers to AK). You have to think about it as to what your V's will perceive it as, and I'm not sure a standard V will perceive the hand. a X/jam with KK on an Axx board will typically not be viewed as standard by an average V, and viewed as more aggro. Not sure how much this will factor into this hand though.

regarding the hand, i lean toward a call and play some post-flop poker, even though we will be OOP which sucks. prob x/call most flops and depending on bet size.

I kind of mis spoke there. I was thinking a value heavy range / premiums only as opposed to a linear range including things like TT. Perhaps still linear but a very short "line" as it were.

Yeah so you showed down a 3!, got folds on another, now this one in 1.5 hrs. That's a 3! Every 3 orbits from you which at a typical lie 2/5 table can be perceived as maybe a little wide. I think we have to give him more than KK+ and thus not folding. Call and keep him however wide he is here.

Isn't this an argument *FOR* 5!/folding to $450ish? If he's dumb enough to 6! shove he lets us off the hook preserving 55-60% of our stack. If he's wider than AA than we ensure that we realize our equity because we shove any flop.

When we call we may often be folding the best hand to a c-bet which seems like a huge drag on our EV. I guess we could call -> x/jam any flop as well to realize our equity but upon further consideration I think 5!/(jam)/fold is ~= or slightly > fold to 4! > call pre/x/jam.

Call and check/call almost every flop.

You raise-folded pre or..?

How come the most reasonable option isn't even here?

no! If he 6 bets, we're smoked, and there's no option of folding after putting in half your stack pre. That would be horrible.

However, if there was enough room to 5bet click it back and still fold to a 6bet with a quarter of our stack or less pre, that would be much better.

For sure.

Of course if this were deeper to begin with, and his range were the same, then flatting becomes the best option by far for only 120 more with KK along with many more hands that were 3 bet.
Most of the time, the cost of a 5bet/fold ~= the cost of seeing a turn via flat, ck-c.

This hand is an easy flat pre, ck-c most flops assuming he bets half pot (which is standard w his range if he's remotely decent). If facing another barrel from a decent/tight player, then it's going to be time to consider a fold ott even though only a PSB behind - no need to give the guy $700 more in a spot where he no longer has AK/JJ+ at the right frequency and is now AA only given the info hero has at this point.

OTTH

Effective Stacks: $1100

Villain opens to $20 UTG
UTG+1 calls
Folds to hero in SB
Hero raises KK to $80
BB folds
Villain thinks for a bit and raises to $200
UTG+1 folds
Hero calls $200

Flop ($420): J 6 3

Hero checks
Villain thinks for a few seconds and bets $450 in green chips
Hero ... ?

Definitely not the bet size I was expecting. Could be interpreted as fishy/bluffy, or that he knows I've got a strong range and likely won't be folding an overpair to a large bet. Sets up a trivial call off of $450 into $1300 on the turn (if we don't jam).