Effective stacks: $650 (Hero covers)

Table is playing 7 handed with most hands going to the flop with a raise. People are trying to get in cheap by limping, but most hands are being attacked from LP/Blinds by opportunistic players, though most hands are being limp/called, with some occasional LP/Button 3!.

V is a 30ish black male who I would classify as a semi-loose rec-reg. For purposes of our read, rec-reg means a player that could either be decent or bad, but I'm not sure yet. If he is "decent," he is a break even to slightly losing player, so nothing overly concerning. He is probably playing raising a 30% range IP and I have seen him 3! pre twice in about an hour.

Hero is young 20's guy who has been mostly folding for the last two hours. I've only played one hand of note where UTG and UTG+1 both limped, UTG+2 ($325 effective) said "lets make it interesting" and raised to $20, got three callers, Hero 3! A7 OTB to $120, he shoved I called and MHIG vs. his QJ. Table saw that and was surprised. So A7s has basically been the best hand I've seen in two hours. Fun times.

OTTH,

V ($650) raises to $20 in MP (his standard raise size)
BTN calls $20 ($600 stack, older man 60ish)
SB folds
Hero ($650) raises to $80 in the BB with AT
UTG folds
V calls $80

I think his continuing range here is mid PP's up to JJ and most broadways. Possibly some big SC's like T9s, 98s. I think he 4! QQ+ given his aggressive preflop nature.

Pot: $175

Flop: 6 8 T

Hero tosses out a $100 chip after 10 seconds
V calls $100 fairly quickly

I think his continuing range here is JJ, Tx, 99, maybe 98s, J9s, JQs and some other broadway overs.

Pot: $375

Turn: 8

Hero checks
V bets $125
Hero calls $125

I thought his bet was kind of weak here, only $25 more than my flop bet. I get the sense he's got a pair but probably wants me to go away. I think we are looking at JJ, Tx or 99.

Pot: $625 ($345 remaining stacks)

River: 5

Hero?

Are we check/calling here or shoving? We can't really bet/fold having put in 50% of effective stacks, so do we bet something small like $100-$150 to try to get looked up by his weak range or just close our eyes, shove and hope he doesn't have JJ or two pair? We'ver got just under a 1/2 PSB left but not sure if shoving that is too thin here. I wish I was a crusher and knew what to do...

Can we count on V to range you here to include 8x? It's safe to assume that neither hand improved here (47 or 55 ... really?) and with V being a reg he will know this.

I like to block/thin value bet here at $160. We may be forced to fold if v shoves his JJ hands or has put us on AK/AQ but I expect to see JJ/99 here in equal proportions and the small threat of 8x will keep him from shoving in most cases. Maybe not JJ .. and certainly not 97 ... Those are getting shoved or overbet here OTR.

I don't mind c/c either, but I think I can keep the amount a touch smaller by leading out. GL

I like a bet around 150 here, and don't think it's really that thin tbh. Title and board don't match up though, is the board correct?

This whole hand is uncomfortable for me. I think it mostly stems from having 125BB eff to start the hand in a 16x spot preflop. ~36BB in the pot on the flop with 109BB to go, SPR is 3 and we flopped TPTK on a 10 high board. At this point, i'm just going with it. I'd rather bet 120 on the flop and ship the turn.

I hate spots like this and it's kind of led me to not 3-bet hands (unless it's a 3x open) that don't flop well preflop oop unless we are 200bb+ deep. In most games at these stack sizes i'm just going to flat pre especially if I feel that 3-betting will lead to a double barrel in most cases or single barrel/check turn. The correct play is probably to fold pre, (what do you do with A9o here?) but folding sucks and i'm mentally handicapped when it comes to folding. I always try to take turn and river SPR situations in to account preflop.

As played, i'm kind of torn between all in, x/f, and bet 50/call but honestly leaning more to x/f (unless he bets under 200). I think i'm 40% for all in, 50% for x/f, and 10% for 50/call. I just really don't like getting to the river this way because it makes poker difficult. I like easy decisions.

edit: by the way, try to keep things like 'wizard bet river' out of titles of the threads because it's really going to skew some responses. It's kind of tough to write 'check/fold river' when you know that results say he had a worse hand this time.

Whoops, yah board is correct I mean hope he doesn't have 8x (which should be unlikely, but not impossible).

You like $150 over shoving for ~$350? Don't you think that looks more value-y than a shove trying to buy the pot with AK?

Given the prior HH with QJ and V profile, I never expect V to ever fold any Tx. I'm planning to get stacks in once the flop comes T high. On the turn 8, I would bet out 175 and shove the river. Betting larger on the flop and shoving the turn also seems good if V is likely to interpret the larger bets as very bluffy. The smaller bets over three streets are also good against many Vs who will only see the pot odds on each street and get sticky.
That being said I don't understand the reason for c/c the turn. Do you think V has that many complete floats in his range that will bet, but not call a bet on the turn? If that is the case then you have to c/c the river against to try to get another bet out of a bluff.
You ranged him much stronger than that and the only reason I see to check the turn is to c/r all in on the turn which seems to much more credibly represent a bluff to V. What are you c/c on the turn that bluffs the river here?

Yeah. I´d like to hear why you checked the turn and what your plan was there for different bet sizing from V. Also, why is a 1/3PSB necessarily a weak made hand and not a draw?

I've been playing with a maniac the last couple of nights. My frequent line is L/RR, c bet flop, then check a lot of turns because he will bet his entire range.

Not in love with the 3b pre unless you're trying to put a lot of money in on axx or txx.

As played I'm either going for the 3 for value or inducing bluffs (as you did) by check calling.

If he shoves you're getting a ridiculous price it's hard to fold

Don't lead river! He's going to auto fold all those qj j9 hands that might feel compelled to bluff

Why are we squeezing ace rag when the whole table knows that we are capable of squeezing ace rag?

First of all, ATo in the BB is a garbage hand. Just fold. How many times do we have to be told that position is the most important thing? Ok, here is one more: "Position is the most important thing." This hand illustrates that perfectly. When we 3! Pre-flop, what are we hoping for, that isn't largely satisfied by flopping TPTK? Yet here we are in a weird spot due to the combination of a bloated pot (who's fault is that?) and OOP.

Now on to the illogic in the hand itself. We include Tx in V's contraction range on the flop, even though this isn't in his range for calling our 3! pre. Huh?

OTT, we turned our TPTK a into a bluff catcher and C/C'd. Well, it's still a bluff catcher. Leading the river makes no sense. He is probably checking behind any reasonable hand with showdown value, such as JJ, 99, Tx, other than 8x (which isn't in the continuing range we assigned to V pre, except 98s), because most rec-regs don't bet this river for thin value. So any river bet is most likely a bluff. Catch it.

The decision of whether to check / call, shove, bet/call or bet/fold is entirely villain dependent.

If you think he is the type to be semi-bluffing the turn ever with J9s or QJ then I think c/c is best. If not, I probably lean towards a bet/call or a shove. Again, what I think of villain is really going to determine whether I bet/call or just shove. If I think he has a propensity to hero call I shove.

If opponent is always 4betting QQ+ then we are only behind JJ and boats here. The weak bet size on the turn could be a draw, middle pair, weaker ten, or a boat. I think we can eliminate JJ since he would bet the turn larger to protect his hand from overcards hitting or from draws coming in. He cant be worried about QQ+ because you would have bet the turn if you had that hand.

I think opponent has a lot more combos of missed draws, weaker tens, and mid pairs like 99 or 77 here. I would probably c/c river. You have shown a lot of weakness in the hand checking the turn, and presumably checking the river. You have been folding the past 2 hours so the V likely thinks he can get you to fold. If opponent shoves it is the nuts or nothing. I really don't like giving aggressive opponents credit for the nuts in heads up 3-bet pots so I call off the bet.

Couldn't even get to the flop. Dear god. Wtf are you doing? The A7 hand is absolutely insane. As far as AT, you are turning it into a bluff. AT is a fine hand to 3 bet bluff, but why are you bluffing in this spot exactly? Unless you have a super duper good reason, it's pretty terrible.

C/c is to slow down and go for two streets of value if V checks or to give V a chance to value own himself/bluff a worse hand vs. our perceived weakness.

If I lead the turn for $175-$200 I think I fold out most of the hands I am ahead of and getting looked up by the top of his range -- and the bottom of that range is probably Tx.

I am comfortable taking this hand to the felt, but only if it involves getting there with V's entire range and not just his shove over my turn bet range which is going to have me crushed.

RE: 1/3 PSB, I don't know - I guess he can have some draws there but I think he is more likely to take the free card. It was just a personal read that I thought he had a made hand rather than a draw.

130 BB's deep, I am pretty comfortable stacking off here assuming we can get there with his entire range hanging around. I think range vs. range I am well ahead with AT so I'm looking to give V the opportunity to make mistakes. I'm never folding, but I'm not in love with bet/calling a turn shove.

Because V is opening a 30% range and AT is well ahead of his range?

You seem to be under the assumption that I am somehow feeling uncomfortable being in this hand. You would be incorrect in that assumption as I feel perfectly fine with where I am at.

You do realize "broadways" (which I included in his 3! call range preflop) includes Tx don't you?

Well that's the whole point of the thread... If he is checking back JJ/Tx/99/8x than leading (shoving) the river is best. But if he's bad (which he may be) than we want to give him a chance to bluff again. So I'm just looking for the highest EV line.

What's insane? I am squeezing with an Axs hand that is -EV to call and that I rated to be ahead of "let's make it interesting's" range.

RE: AT, if you think you have the best hand, and there is some dead money to attack, why wouldn't you raise? AT > 30% opening range seems like a pretty standard 3! squeeze to me.

Even though AT is > than a 30% opening range, it still sucks when playing OOP. The fact that your cards are a little ahead of your opponents range does not make up for the fact that you are out of position.

It is even worse when opponents know you are capable of 3-betting light (like with A7) since they will become more sticky postflop and not give you credit for a premium pair. So when the flop comes raggedy, you are stuck c-betting with Ace high and getting called down light.

You got lucky that you hit one of the best possible flops for your hand. On the majority of flops, it would have been pretty difficult for you to win the hand since you have little fold equity at the table.

Agree with most of this. Generally what I was thinking in real time.

The Pyramid of Playability or whatever the hell it's called is generally:
1. Card edge
2. Skill edge
3. Positional edge

You need 2/3 of them to play a hand profitably. I have a card edge and what I determine to be a skill edge. 2/3 is good enough for me to play hence why I play.

What are opponents going to remember more? That I 3! A7s (which was a value raise since it was the best hand) or that I've been folding for two hours straight and am now 3! out of the BB which is an inherently stronger range?

When we 3! here we are looking to take the pot down preflop and prepared to c-bet most flops if called.

So you could play 72o profitably if you were against this guy and he had Aces, but you had the button? You have really poor justifications for all your ideas and it seems like not once have you ever taken any opinion contrary to yours into serious consideration in any of your threads.

A7: Just because our hand is ahead of his opening range, doesn't necessarily mean you should 3 bet. You have to have an idea of what you want to happen and how likely that is to happen. I still don't know if this is as a bluff or for value, and it seems like you don't really know either. It's not bad if you have a plan, a read, and a reason, but it seems like you have none of those. Then you call a 4 bet? This is the insane part. Unless this guy is just out of his mind aggro that you see a handful of times all year, the call is suicidal.

AT: Again you need a plan. Don't know if this is intended to be for value or as a bluff. This is not a good 3-bet for value because it is a mediocre hand and you are OOP. As a bluff, it's fine if you have a good reason to think the bluff is going to work. You shouldnt just be bluffing as a standard. From the description, you don't know this guy well enough to just think you should bluff. If he folds a ton to 3 bets then fine, otherwise this isn't a good bluff.

I like the turn chk here. Now I don't expect v to bet his medium strength hands I expect him to chk those back. Now... You originally stated you had a hand you thought was worth 2 streets of value I kind of agree and that's why I like the turn check with the plan to bet river when turn checks through. If we bet the river now our line doesn't make a whole lot of sense and therefore I suppose could get looked up by worse...I guess. Nothing in the read about the villains river play so I'm not sure how to assess whether he's got more combos of bricked draws/worse made hands that he will bet/bluff vs bluff catchers. I agree b/f would be gross given stacks.

I'm actually thinking something ******edly small like $50 or $75 to a) get called by all his hopelessly worse pairs like 12 combos of 77/99 or b) induce a spazz with his bricked out draws of which there are a bunch (esp given his quick call otf). we'd obv snap off His shove.

I don't dislike the 3! as much as others do, think it's ok if you feel you have edge post flop. In fact I think all three options pre are fine.

I like flop sizing.

I think checking turn > betting because this is a bad board for your perceived range and one we give up here pretty often with two random face cards. Think c/c is better than c/r as well.

River is interesting given his turn sizing. I'd lean toward starting with a check in order to let him bluff with random draws but his sizing on the turn makes me think that it could be a scared Tx, 99, 77 or something along those lines with SDV that won't be inclined to bet river but might call a bet. Still thinking c/c is best, c/f seems insane to me. If we c/c and are wrong I doubt he folds to our donk river shove anyway given SPR so I don't feel bad about it.

You were one of the few that wasn't mortified by the preflop 3! Can you expand on why you don't think a river bet is that thin?

You've gotten some excellent, well reasoned responses itt. Sunchips with some great preflop food for thought, wincet solid as usual, and others. I'll be rereading this thread later for more study.

One note, someone criticized your call of the shove, the call was standard due to pot odds.

Not going to criticize the 3bets, only you can know if you had the necessary FE.

This flop with this SPR, I'm not planning to fold. I think I would've went 140 and shove turn. AP, once you checked the turn, I don't understand why it isn't a x/jam. We're ahead of his range, let's gii. He's unlikely to be folding, and if he does, even his "air" had equity, so it's not a disaster.

Not sure if someone already discussed this.

That is not a logical reason to 3-bet a hand. You need to look at how ATo does vs his 3bet calling range.

Both the A7s and ATo hands are a 3bet light where hero should be looking to take it down preflop. They are both at or below the bottom of a good calling range and they have an Ace blocker.

We'd expect ATo to be in relatively poor shape against a 3bet calling range. Hero was saved by a nice flop though and should commit at this SPR even though he's gonna run into QQ and JJ some of the time.

So what was calling the 4 bet with A7?