Conventional wisdom goes: "well, you weren't repping anything with your bluff so therefore it was bad". But..

Think about this.

1. This only matters if villain is competent enough to go back thru your line/range and figure out that you're repping nothing or very slim. If he's not then it doesn't matter, does it?

2. It only matters if villain actually has something to call you down with. If he's really weak also as in air or bottom pair then it's very hard for him to call even though he strongly suspects you have nothing also. So my point is in a battle of nothing vs nothing or bluff vs bluff you don't need to rep anything and whoever's more aggressive takes the pot. So if you think your opponent is really weak you can blast away even though you're repping nothing and he knows it.

Right? Thoughts?

no you do not need to rep anything if your opponent does not have anything and has established they can't call down light.

you can usually rep any two ****ty pair cards though right?

Not repping a hand is a really bad habit and is likely going to lose you money

This would be similar to playing exploitably against players who dont know how to take advantage. Sizing your bets in an obvious but optimal way because bad players won't adjust. Im not sure if the answer but id guess is dependant on who your up against

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If your opponent is unaware then you're not repping nothing to him. you're representing something that beats him even if it's impossible for you to actually have it.

If you're opponent has nothing, then you're likely bluffing with the best hand which just means that you also don't know what you're doing.

I like to balance underbluffing and making thin or small value bets on the river. So If you have a few opportunities to make small thin value bets on rivers, then you can underbluff and lose small amounts if called. I think river play is the hardest transition for former internet tourney players to make, and I have been focusing on it a lot since I transitioned to cash. When you are really paying attention at the table, it is amazing how much money is left on the table by failing to incorporate thin value bets with underbluffs, and general river value plays.

When opponents show they will raise you to blow you off hands, you can adjust, but it is amazing how often opponents are unable to raise river bluff.

The short answer is yes, you're right (but only against the right villains). In these cases pound away until they figure out what you're doing. I once played against a guy who would always fold aces or any overpair to a raise because he played so tight. Major MUB syndrome. If the Vs range is largely weak hands and you know V to not hero call then also fire. Otherwise, stop bluffing!

I only want to bluff when I can tell a story that the Villain will believe. So if he won't believe me no matter what story I tell, it's a bad bluff.

Also, if I'm going to try to rep a big hand, I have to do it not by playing how I would play a big hand, but by playing the way he would expect me to play a big hand. Since most passive fish love slowplaying, that is why it's hard to rep a big hand sometimes--since when we show aggression they often assume we can't have anything really good because we didn't slowplay. In fact I've even seen competent players think like that before. (And plenty of people reading this have probably fallen victim to that as well at some time or other.)

I am bolding that sentence again, because it applies to so much more than bluffing. Understanding how our villains play their value hands gives us so much information on what lines we can take to exploit them, whether it is for value or as a bluff.

Grunch.
No you dont always have to rep anything. against really bad players, when their range is weak especially on the river, SOMETIMES you can often times make a really big bet and steal the pot even against loose players. also against super nits, you can just apply enough pressure on any board and get them to fold all one pair hands

I personally only bluff thinking players.

And when I bluff, it's usually on wet boards. Thinking villain can credibly think you have a straight if it gets there, or flush, if it gets there. Typically will take 2 streets of bluffing; one to float, then one to raise when your hand "hits".

The worst bluffs are the bluffs with a polarized range.

Mind to elaborate on the bold part? Generalizing here is not very well thought out imo

Common bruh, you play enough to already know the answers to your questions.

I know you've read at least one of these because we discussed the first one.

Weak vs. Weak: Agro always wins.

I win

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=23

I lose

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...76&postcount=3

Repping nothing:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=73

This should be printed out and posted on everyone's laptop.

Actually, you've stumbled on to some truths here. This works on MUBS, weak-tight players, and scared money players.

in fact, there is a guy who is a super weak-tight scared money ABC nit. His raising range is specifically JJ+, AK from all positions. He has clear sizing tells. Game is 2/5nl. Normally opening raises in the Bay Area 2/5nl game is $25. He will open for $25 with AK and $35 - $40 with JJ/QQ and he opens $55 - $75 with AA/KK. If there is a raise, he will flat with JJ/QQ/AK and he 3-bet blast to $150+ with AA/KK.

If he is deep and over 150bb, come flop, he will pot the flop and then he will bet 1/3rd pot on turn...

I have a line I've been taking with this guy for the past year. Whenever he is 150bb+ deep, I 100% flat all of his raises with ATC. I flat his preflop raise, I flat his flop bet, and then I jam him on the turn and to date he has folded 100% to me, showing me AA, KK, JJ, whatever. He somehow rationalizes that I hit whatever hand to beat him even though my line makes no sense whatsoever. He puts me on hitting gutshots and flushes or sets and then he proudly shows his fold and I muck and say, "wow, good read, good fold, most people aren't good enough to lay that down, damn, wish someone else had your hand so I could have stacked em..."

So yes, there are definitely classes of players we can bluff even if our line makes no sense. The trick is figuring out who these players are

And to be honest, imo, these players are rare at LLSNL. For the most part, players overcall to include even when they think they are beat

gotta be careful with this, it's been my experience that thinking players are some of the worst offenders of bad calls as they can level themselves into calling...

I get what you are saying, basically, players who can think and see they are beat and fold...

But I go one step further, I try to focus in on players that have DEMONSTRATED they can fold and who have actually made big folds. I also use table talk to help with my decisions.

Players like to talk and you will hear players say stuff like, "I know you got nothing but I'm going to wait for a better spot..." or players that say, "Man, how could you call with that, you have to fold there..." and then there are other mantras like, "don't want to be greedy I'm fine taking it down now..."

I also like to key in on players who it's obvious they don't like to play for stacks, players that like to offer to check it down a lot or when they grab their chips to bet then look at you and say, "go ahead..."

In summary, yes, targeting thinking players is good, but I try to go a step further and identify players who I know have a propensity for folding as demonstrated by their talk and play...

With some players, you can literally smell the scared money if you know the signs of what to look for

U should be able to rep any kind of hand. Sometimes ppl take weird spot and bluff without repping, which is really bad cause most player nowadays will call u light. So, i think its better to have a plan for rep hand when u bluff. cause if not, u can go wrong so easy. of course, with the battle of nothing vs nothing, whoever more aggressive will win. but that only happen when nothing vs nothing.

LOL. O man, this is so good. How many times have you done this to him?

You're on the track that Ed Miller has been preaching in his latest book.

Essentially, we don't care what our opponents have or do.

Is it the most profitable way of playing in LLSNL? Probably not.

to date, well over 20 times. I play with him 2 - 3 times per month.

There are several players I do this with, basically, scared money nits that open fold giant hands vs aggros who it's obvious are FOS.

I did run into a hilarious spot a year ago vs a nit I take the above line with. I had stolen easily $3k from him over the past few months floating and shoving him on turn or river. So finally, this hand happens.

Eff stacks $600, I cover. V raises from EP to $25, I call, 3 way action.

Flop($75) Q 4 5
V bets $50, I call, everyone else folds

TUrn($175) 9
V bets $75, I raise to $175, V calls

River($425) Q
V chks, I shove all-in, V gets up and looks at the board and says, "You can't have a straight flush..." he looks at his hand and the board several times and says, "I'm pretty sure I have the nuts... There's no straight flush right???... Okay, I call..."

he then shows quad Queens

Opps

what is hilarious though is that if the river had been ANY other card that didn't pair the board he would have folded putting me on a straight or a flush.

For example, a flop of 994 and you raise a pfr on the flop who has AA trying to rep a 9 or pocket 44s.

Or a hand where you have a hand like bottom set of pocket 55's on a board of 59k6andA and you try to rep the Ace of spade on the river trying to fold out a smaller spade.

From my experience people just can't fold their big hands because they can't believe that an opponent can hold the few hands that beat them.

I only bluff a board where it looks like I can have 2 pair, or a straight, and I know the opponent knows that he himself can't look like he has 2 pair or a straight.

Dgi - I'm interested in knowing if you had to show the quad Q hand and if you did, did you take a different line with v after that.

You're absolutely correct. I forgot to add the caveat that these players I do bluff are also scared money/MUB players.

But to be honest, I think bluffing is -EV most of the time at a low limit table. The spots are there, but you really really have to know the right situations to do it profitably.

One of my biggest leaks by far is my auto-pilot bluffer.

I know with a high degree of certainty that my villain has some weaksauce hand, and then I instinctively try to "rep" a hand when the board gets scary. The line I take is a thing of beauty and poker grace, my villains will often cringe and sigh and shake their heads and actually say, "Man, you got the flush huh? You got the straight? I know you got me beat. Okay I call..."

And then as they are scooping in the pot and stacking my chips they are laughing and saying, "Man I was SURE I was beat..."

and I would rage inside. I would want to grab them by the collar, white spittle foaming at the corners of my mouth, and SCREAM into their faces, "IF YOU WERE SURE YOU WERE BEAT WHY DID YOU F***ING CALL YOU F***ING DONK!!!!!"

It takes constant vigilance on my part to check my urge to bluff because as you said, at LLSNL it is -EV a lot of the time. Not to say there aren't great bluff spots because there definitely are and I do a fair amount of bluffing. But it takes a lot of skill to know when and who we can bluff...

Yeah, I had to show.

And after that show I still continue to bluff him and he still continues to fold.

This is one of the things I think 2+2ers do not understand about a lot of our live fish villains. Many of us unknowingly pass on our biases to other players and think "well, now that he has seen you bluff he obviously will adjust to you."

No. No he won't.

Most rec-fish are just not beyond Level 1 players and even if they are Level 2, many of them are terribad level 2. They play the way they play because that is how they play. They rarely if ever adjust in the sense that we adjust.

I have the reverse with another player, I bluffed a guy out of a $2k pot a year and a half ago. Since then, I have not bluffed him because he ALWAYS assumes I am bluffing. It is to the point where I monkey shove TPGK against him for double or triple pot and he will SNAP call me with middle pair and then after I stack him for literally the 20th time he will say, "I thought you were bluffing."

Fish gonna fish, donks gonna donk, and MUBs are gonna MUB

Haha what a doofus. No straight was possible, let alone straight flush. Actually I think Q was a great card for you to shove there as he'd definitely put you on trip Qs or a boat and make a lot of stink about how unlucky he is and fold his AA/KK.

And you had to show? You couldn't muck? Cali rules eh?