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Old 05-31-2014, 04:23 AM   #1
Olaff
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$2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

I took a break and came back and bought the button for $7 and $5 played. I was dealt K8o. CO (woman fish, tries to play good cards preflop but still a fish) raises to $15, button calls.

... I convince myself into calling.. getting 3.5:1 and all that. Mistake?

Anyway, I called.

Flop: Ks9h3s Pot ~ $45 I check to CO. CO fires $35, button flats.

You, why and what's the plan for future streets? And was calling $10 extra a mistake?
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:15 AM   #2
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

fold pre
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:18 AM   #3
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

if she's trying to play good cards and bets here, i'm probably folding TPNK. if you want to float one street and try to steal the turn, i can see that, too, if she's pretty transparent.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:53 AM   #4
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Fold preflop. With a few more villains in and deep stacks, I might call with K8s but K8o is just garbage. It is a hand you have to flop two pair or better to every like post flop and having to play OOP limits the profits anyway.

As played, I'm bailing on this flop when two villains show interest. Original better could be c-betting air, but you have no idea where you stand relative to button. Knowing which turns you can steal will be guesswork.
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Old 05-31-2014, 10:46 AM   #5
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

3 betting preflop would be better than calling, but I wouldn't recommend it in this spot.
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Old 05-31-2014, 10:51 AM   #6
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

I hate folding, so I can see your point about the call pre... But K8o has such a slim chance of felting someone and some bad RIO since you are going to have to get tricky to make any money. If you had posted in the CO I can see a case for calling pre.

As played, again, I hate folding but for the same reasons (even moreso now) c/f the flop. Against a fish with this bet sizing i'd expect to see 1010+ TPGK+. Sure, we can try to win this pot in a few different ways if we call or raise, but it's not going to be easy.

I don't think you would post this hand if you c/f the flop, so on to the next street!
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Old 05-31-2014, 11:26 AM   #7
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

A. OK, agreed K8o is garbage but we're getting 3.5:1. That means we need only 22% equity. Even against a pure-premium range we have that:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.019% 25.70% 00.31% 290489736 3551430.00 { K8o }
Hand 1: 73.981% 73.67% 00.31% 832528044 3551430.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

So why should we not call extra $10? You guys are probably right but please explain this to me.

B. If you don't call extra $10 with K8o, what would you call with? Suited Aces, suited connectors, suited 1 gappers and face cards? And why with them and not with K8o?
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Old 05-31-2014, 11:43 AM   #8
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

That 26% equity you gave your hand is against one player, which is wrong since two are involved. But let's pretend you do have 26% equity against both players. IF you were calling all in for $15, then yes you could profitably call. You could also profitably call IF both other players agree to auto-check the hand down post flop.

But since you're OOP, you have a disadvantage. The positional disadvantage is greater than your equity advantage (26% equity when you're pot odds are 22%).

There's not an exact number of the difference in those two percentages you need to make up for the positional disadvantage, but many slightly better hands like suited aces are probably profitable to call, despite being OOP.

Effective stack sizes also matter.
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:04 PM   #9
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
A. OK, agreed K8o is garbage but we're getting 3.5:1. That means we need only 22% equity. Even against a pure-premium range we have that:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.019% 25.70% 00.31% 290489736 3551430.00 { K8o }
Hand 1: 73.981% 73.67% 00.31% 832528044 3551430.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

So why should we not call extra $10? You guys are probably right but please explain this to me.

B. If you don't call extra $10 with K8o, what would you call with? Suited Aces, suited connectors, suited 1 gappers and face cards? And why with them and not with K8o?
Forget the equities.

What about RIO, what about IO, what about fold equity, what about their aggression factor, what about your image.

These are all much more important than your direct odds at the time.

K8 is just a bad hand to call with here.

What am I calling with? V dependent and stack dependent, but against an average fish that folds too much or is too agro, suited Ax, all scs-s3gs, pairs, some connecters. I might 3x c-bet a hand like K8o if they fold too much.

K8 flops mediocre hands way too often. I like hands that are easy to play. Like when I have air. Or when I have a draw. Or when I have a monster. I'd rather stuff money in to a pot with air than TPWK. It makes the rest of the hand a lot easier.
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:28 PM   #10
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
I took a break and came back and bought the button for $7 and $5 played. I was dealt K8o. CO (woman fish, tries to play good cards preflop but still a fish) raises to $15, button calls.

... I convince myself into calling.. getting 3.5:1 and all that. Mistake?

Anyway, I called.

Flop: Ks9h3s Pot ~ $45 I check to CO. CO fires $35, button flats.

You, why and what's the plan for future streets? And was calling $10 extra a mistake?
So who's the fish in this hand? Seriously, you're going to disparage someone's playing ability then proceed to show a hand where you make a garbage play, and apparently have little idea (a)that it's a garbage play, and (b)why it's a garbage play? At least the person you knock as a fish has the sense to try to play good cards pre.

Op, you might want to re-consider how you view your opponents, or people in general. Don't think that attitude doesn't shine through. Lose the ego, it has no place in LLSNL. In fact, it will just bite you in the ass. And you might want to head back to the 1/1 or 1/2 kiddy pool until you've got a better grasp on fundamentals...if you're ego will let you.

/rant
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:05 PM   #11
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
A. OK, agreed K8o is garbage but we're getting 3.5:1. That means we need only 22% equity. Even against a pure-premium range we have that:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.019% 25.70% 00.31% 290489736 3551430.00 { K8o }
Hand 1: 73.981% 73.67% 00.31% 832528044 3551430.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

So why should we not call extra $10? You guys are probably right but please explain this to me.

B. If you don't call extra $10 with K8o, what would you call with? Suited Aces, suited connectors, suited 1 gappers and face cards? And why with them and not with K8o?
You have to think about how hard playing K8o is without having aggression and being OOP. You are going to be put in a lot of tough spots with a hand like this. To see this just look at the hand you posted.
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:54 PM   #12
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Generally bad but depends on stacks and image
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Old 05-31-2014, 05:27 PM   #13
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn View Post
So who's the fish in this hand? Seriously, you're going to disparage someone's playing ability then proceed to show a hand where you make a garbage play, and apparently have little idea (a)that it's a garbage play, and (b)why it's a garbage play? At least the person you knock as a fish has the sense to try to play good cards pre.

Op, you might want to re-consider how you view your opponents, or people in general. Don't think that attitude doesn't shine through. Lose the ego, it has no place in LLSNL. In fact, it will just bite you in the ass. And you might want to head back to the 1/1 or 1/2 kiddy pool until you've got a better grasp on fundamentals...if you're ego will let you.

/rant
Relax man. You just did the exact same thing that you are bashing OP for... Lecturing him on ego in a post that clearly demonstrates that you haven't take your own advice. Seriously though... we're all hypocrites... I'm not a psychologist, but it appears to me that that type of thing is built into our brains, hence the f'in bonkers world we are living in.

On to the hand...

OP, as other have stated, the hand should be folded pre because it doesn't flop well at all. We are basically looking for 88x and K8x flops only in order to stack someone.

As played, I'm fine with either dumping this hand now, or calling once and folding to further aggression. The lesson here is really to fold pre.
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Old 05-31-2014, 05:57 PM   #14
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

lol at the rant. It's entirely plausible that the OP is sharp enough to recognize a fish, but is also currently striving to find a "next level" for his game and/or trying to recognize and shut down leaks. So he's doing two things right 1) He's being critical of his own play in an honest way and 2) He's putting in the effort to maximize his understanding of the hand, and how it fits into his game, while away from the table.

That's some of the least fishy stuff you can do.

On to the hand. I would really like more of a read on V. Playing tight pre-flop doesn't mean much. You're calling pre, so there is no hope of taking the hand down before the flop, so we really need some post-flop tendencies about V to make an informed plan for the hand. However, even with a ton of info, I would still find about 99% folds pre flop with this hand. And as played, fold on the flop.
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:48 PM   #15
Olaff
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
That 26% equity you gave your hand is against one player, which is wrong since two are involved.
Good point, I ran a Monte Carlo assigning random cards to the third player.

1,521,574,647 games 1653.998 secs 919,937 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 21.206% 20.71% 00.50% 315056807 7609280.50 { K8o }
Hand 1: 56.827% 56.35% 00.48% 857394503 7265649.33 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 21.967% 21.30% 00.67% 324085522 10163219.33 { random }

Even assigning random cards to the third player drops our equity below breakeven. Of course the third player didn't call with random cards, his cards are better than random making our equity even lower.
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:56 PM   #16
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Re: $2/$5 NL: Buying the Button with K8o

Would anyone call pre with with weaker offsuit Aces, weaker than AJo?
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:54 PM   #17
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Fold pf, esspecially oop. As played fold the flop, when you play trash your only hope is to make 2p+ because if you make tp it will always be a weak tp.
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