$500 eff. Fishy table. I have 32cc in BB, image TAG. EP limps, button makes it $15, SB calls, I call, EP calls.

Flop: 8s5c5h Pot ~ $60 Checks around.
Turn: Jc SB bets $25. I call, others fold.
River: Td Pot ~ $110

V is an Indian 25-30ish guy in glasses. New to the table, no idea how he plays.

Is it a good idea to fire 1/2 pot into him here?

He checked to you?

Probably not a good idea with no reads. I imagine a lot of Jx and Tx just pot controlling and planning on check/calling you. I don't see SB's stabbing with air very often in my games (not nearly as often as button stabs.) I could even imagine A-high flush draws calling you. If he's an Asian Indian, maybe but I still say no. If he's a Native American, definitely do not bet.

Questionable turn call. You cannot count your outs as a full 9 outs. I'd count them as 6-7 to take into account the chance you're drawing dead or someone has a higher flush. This means to you need to win approximately $67.5 on the river to break even vs. the SB. That's a bit optimistic, and combined w/ the chance that someone behind you raises you out make turn a fold.

As played, if he's "fishy" I would not bluff and just give up.

Do you not have reads on the other players in this hand or are you just not including them? It seems obvious that this hand is gonna go 4-ways considering the raiser's small sizing, And I'm not gonna play weak SCs multi-way OOP here. Just fold PF. As played, bluffing unknowns is -EV so I would never try to make a move here without excellent reads.

Agreed with the fold PF. You are basically only happy full houses and non-monotone straights. Not happy with trips or flushes; too rare to even bother calling $10.

I wonder what our PF SC calling range should be. I'm probably calling 67s here because that's where we get the (A2) 345 (67) situation.

I don't mind a bluff, I think you need a big bet to look like a 5, though.

Pre-flop dude.

Pre-flop.

fold pre

There's not much that is going to go right if you are calling raises OOP with 32s. If you're doing this regularly, you don't have a TAG image. What were you thinking?

Turn is a meh call and betting the river with a 1/2 psb is just spewing money. He'll whine, hollywood for an hour, then call.

spot on

Everything about this hand is hideous. The only way I play 23 out of the BB is if I get a free play. Raised pot, I muck it without a second thought.

I'm intrigued that you chose the word hideous do describe our friend's play here. usually I save this diction for the girls I bring home after $2 margarita mondays. dramatic stuff on your part.

Also intrigued that you would never play 23s out of the BB to a raise. I would imagine you would be loosing significant money when a very tight player (the likes of which can't fold OP's) makes a raise, we close the action, and we are extremely deep.

anyways, I digress. this is a fold pre for sure. turn is also a fold. river is not a fold. I like a check a vast majority of the the time unless I have a strong read an alternate line is more profitable which I don't think we have unfortunately.

bad spot to bluff because your range looks like: a whiffed draw

fold pre

Look at what happened here:

The way I would play it is to r/f the turn. That makes it look like a failed check-raise on the flop, and he can rep a five in the hole. He was the BB after all, and could easily have a five here. Repping is risky, but given the described action, I might try it, especially when his turn bet is so small here WRT pot size. I would like more history with this line-up of players before trying something like that. You find a lot of rec-fish who think a bet is a bet is a bet with no consideration for pot size, let alone SPR. As played, either raise or fold. Calling is the worst play here.

This isn't losing significant money since how often does that particular scenario come up? What is it that you're trying to make with 23? Every straight it makes is an idiot end straight. A flush draw is to a three-high flush, a made flush might be good, but even a sticky player can get away from a monotone board when all he has is an overpair, and he doesn't have any of it. If he does, then 23ss is in big trouble if another suiter drops. If two deuces or treys roll off, then you probably have kicker trouble if you get played with, as A2 and A3 are calling hands pre (even when they shouldn't call, they often do just because... Ace!) If the game is that fishy, you can find better spots to play for stacks, in position, and with much less risk.

If I did play, it would be a raise or 3!, then I'd be targeting a specific fish over whom I have good control and can outplay on the flop. In that case, the dealer could just as easily deal me the deck's insert card and a joker, as those paste boards sitting before me would be irrelevant in a case like this.

I misread the hand history, I saw BB and 32s and assumed it was limped. Dude. Fold 32s to a raise from the blinds. I beg you.

Fold turn and dont bet river. He will chk to call on the river very often here.

Fold pf all day....there is a time and a place to play 32s but this isn't one of them. Wait until you have position and are deep stacked (eff stacks as well).

Against unknown villain, never bluffing here. Most LLNL players will hate the call on the river but will do it anyways.

So everyone agrees 32s should be a fold pre, even for $10 extra from BB. OK then what's the minimum SC you'd call extra $10 with in this spot and why?

KQs. Maybe QJs since it's a button raise (though I would consider 3betting instead w blockers).

don't play SCs out of position without initiative. You lose too much trying to chase, and win less when you hit.

You either are positionally aware or you are not. Positionally aware means there are hands we would play in late positions that we will not from the blinds/EP. SCs make up a good subset of these hands.

OK, didn't expect your cut-off to be that high. Anyone else?

With those stacks, against unknowns, I'm pretty much folding all SCs up to JTs, because we're not really going to be able to profitably continue OOP with most pairs unless it's TPGK (requiring KQ), and if we flop a draw we're not going to be able to set a price, take free cards, or bluff with equity profitably. In fact, I'm often folding QJs as well, simply because we're dominated too often here.

Put simply, try to only play pure drawing hands in position. OOP drawing hands at this stack depth against unknowns need the ability to make TPGK as well, otherwise we can't profitably continue often enough.

That said, with a combination of the following (common) reads, SCs CAN be played profitably OOP, even at this stack depth:

-The Vs are stations who will pay off large bets when we hit an obvious draw (FD)

-The limper/SB will donk with their medium strength hands, allowing us to make a move on the turn if the PFR checks behind the flop.

-Any of the players in the hand are complete calling stations with TP type hands

-EP does not L/RR pretty much ever

-Opener's range is sufficiently tight such that we have good implied odds against him, allowing us to wait for 2p+/monster draws to put money in

-SB and EP play their draws face-up, allowing us to avoid RIO spots of being over-flushed

-SB and EP almost never check-raise, and PFR bet-sizes very small relative to the pot, allowing us to draw for cheap OOP.

There's probably more factors as well which I left out.


EDIT:

As for the actual hand itself at the river, x/f (probably going to be x/x though). Indian guys are generally more stationy than the already stationy LLSNL players. When the FD misses on the river, you're probably not getting any random LLSNL player to fold to a bet here, let alone an Indian.

Bet $35-$40 on river if he checks to you. You will get called often by Jx, T9 OESD that ran into 2nd pair, Txcc that ran into 2nd pair, and even 8x, but you are giving your good odds on your bluff to bluff out busted draws that have more SDV than you 32-high.