Could not have summed up my reasons to flat flop any better.

Fold turn vs v2 passive station that calls down with 2nd and 3rd pair as described. All that knowledge and were doing the worst thing by calling big bets when when flush card hits.

edit: if villans are switched then my point is still usefull

Eddie that was some of the fishiest logic I have ever seen and I'm not even sure where to begin...

Why do you think villain would 3! his KX hands? Do you know how poorly those hands are performing against our flop raising range of 88, 55 and AKx? The answer is badly. KdQd,KdJd,KdTd has 31% vs. our value raise range. His KX hands are a pretty clear bet/call. Non-diamond 76s is even more unlikely (dirty outs) which has 27% versus our range. A flop 3! with those hands simply invites a shove down his throat since he is blocking the flush draw hands a worse player would consider raising the flop with.

The fact of the matter is we don't even need a semi-bluff range on this flop, but if we wanted to throw some in for balance it would be the weaker flush draws and 76s (to fold out his A-high and medium PP hands). The rest of our drawing continuing range is strong enough to call, keep the fish involved and see a turn in position. The only question becomes how far down the linear path do we want to raise for value. AK is a clear value raise (83% equity vs. his amended flop c-bet range with added AA/QQ). KQ is a value raise (75% vs. the amended c-bet range) and KJ/KT can now become the bottom of our value range which is still 70% vs. villain's range.

If you want to talk about thin value, QQx and JJx become legitimate value raises with 61% and 55% equity respectively.

Than widen your value range (and semi-bluff range) so that villain widen's his continuing range. It's as simple as that. Otherwise you are missing out on value.

There is no arbitrary line in the sand that says "you can't raise TPTK for value because effective stacks have become too large." We flopped TPTK IP vs. a wide PFR range 200 BB's deep (plus a fish in the BB) on an extremely wet board. This is not the time to pussyfoot around and play cautiously. This is the time to make V1's life hell by applying pressure and forcing him to make calling mistakes. 200 BB's really isn't even that deep.

I mean honestly, if you are not raising AKx on this flop then how the hell do you ever expect to get paid with your value hands? If your raising range is exclusively 88 and 55 then good luck trying to get paid because you are a huge nit.

This is just nonsense and completely false. If you think a winning pro is folding everything <AK to a single raise on a wet flop than you are living in fantasy land.

If his raise pre -> c-bet flop range looks like the following:
55+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,76s,Ad9d,Jd9d,Td9d,Ad7d,Ad6 d,Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (207 combos)

Then according to you, he is folding 168/207 combos (81%) to a single flop raise when we hold no blockers, leaving him a continuing range of 39 combos of AA, AK, KK, 88, 55, KX and AX.

If we hold a non- Ace blocker, he is folding 139/172 combos (81%), leaving him a continuing range of 33 combos of AA, AK, KK, 88, 55, KX and AX.

And finally, when we hold the nut A blocker, he is folding 142/166 combos (86%), leaving him a continuing range of 24 combos of AA, AK, KK, 88, 55, and KX.

Under your ridiculous assumptions about how a winning pro plays, we can raise damn near ATC to $120 and print money since our break-even fold is 36% and villain is folding >80%. The correct adjustment is to widen our value range while adding a minimal number of semi-bluffs from our weaker holdings and straight bluffs from our AX(broadway) range. Who do you think becomes more difficult to play against?

Nice_Guy_Eddie's Flop Raising Range: 6-9 combos
Nutted Value Only:
KK - 3 combos (if we decide to flat pre IP)
88 - 3 combos
55 - 3 combos

johnnyBuz's Flop Raising Range: ~68 combos
Linear Value: 43-52 combos
KK - 3 combos (if we decide to flat pre IP)
88 - 3 combos
55 - 3 combos
AA - 6 combos (if we decide to flat pre IP)
AK - 12 combos
KQ - 12 combos
KJ - 12 combos
76 - 1 combo

Semi-Bluffs: (8 combos)
JT - 1 combo
J9 - 1 combo
T9 - 1 combo
97 - 1 combo
64 - 1 combo
76s - 3 combos

Stone Bluffs: 12 combos
AQx - 4 combos
AJx - 4 combos
ATx - 4 combos

Your flop raising range allows villain to play perfectly. He folds everything but KK and 88 and you win a whopping 8 BB's with your monster.

My flop raising range makes life hell for villain. I have ~50 value combos of various strength, 8 semi-bluffs with good equity and 12 combos of nut backdoor draws. Now villain has to start bet/calling with hands like KQ, KJ, KT and likely even some of his QQx hands or he will get run over. And because we are IP we can control how big the pot gets, whether we want to double barrel the turn or check back and realize our equity. Villain will now also be forced to call with his non-nut draws (which make up a healthy portion of his raise pre -> c-bet flop range) because they have good equity versus our flop raising range.

As you can see, now we begin to get value from ~70 combos of hands where you get value from none. Villain will begin to make calling and folding mistakes, often folding his made hands <Kx to our semi-bluff or bluff raises and calling with weak Kx+ hands that are behind our value range.

So what? Please show me in your Fish Logic 101 manual where it says the maximum value we can extract on any one street is a 2/3 PSB.

This is 100% false for all of the reasons I have previously mentioned and I sincerely hope nobody reads your post and starts believing it to be true. If your image is so nitty that you aren't able to raise this flop and get called by worse than you have huge leaks in your game and are missing out on value left and right.

When you have a range + positional advantage against a wide opener in LP on a dynamic flop, you hammer your villain with bets and raises. You don't sit back passively calling hoping that your TPTK holds up against a range where you have no idea what he has and what cards help him.

So the good player bet bet bet. Shove.

Lots of false assumptions, projections, and hyperbole. The bottom line is we can get value on the turn. If you're trying to play for stacks 200BB deep with TPTK, you're losing your stack more often then not.

Villain's range is much weaker here than if hero has ATC because we block a significant number of premium Kx hands, AA, and nut flush draws. The way to beat weaker ranges is to let them fire and disguise your own strength. Not raise and allow them to fold.

Raising the flop does not guarantee you are playing for stacks, it merely opens the door to the possibility which you control IP. But good luck being a MUBsy nit.

Yep +1 to false assumptions and projections.

If we are flatting AK pre, 100% standard to keep calling down. Lets him keep bluffing and value bet worse. Raising just folds his bluffs and isolates us vs his stronger range. And raise/folding AK here is just really bad. And if we are raising TPTK here, our calling range becomes too weak.