Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2013, 11:21 PM   #101
RunninMan5K
old hand
 
RunninMan5K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 1,543
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

DGI just helped me on a similar AA spot and the post are so strong...I wanna be amazing one day lol.
RunninMan5K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #102
Pokersevil
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 408
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
Wat?!?

Folding flop is bad even though you knew he was a level 1 player playing over his head and his body language told you that you were beat??? Ummmm must fold now.

Calling the flop to reeval turn is pretty bad. What do you expect him to do after he c/r's with a hand like AT? c/f? c/c? If he was that weak he would have never c/r'd the flop with 1 pair. He would have c/c'd.

If you are that lost in the hand a fold OTF is the best action IMO.
I mean as i said earlier i wanted to fold the flop, but I just felt for that amount I had to see what he did on the turn. Honestly I dont fel folding on the flop is too bad more nitty.

I am not lost in the hand. If i had to bet money i would have bet he had a set, but i dont KNOW. When i call and he open shoves a brick i know its a bad player making a bad play.

As i see it, a player bad enough to check raise me with a set on that board is not going to all of the sudden slow down on the turn. Any range that is making a play, JJ-QQ, A-10 very well might slow it down on the turn after getting called on the flop.
Pokersevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 09:55 AM   #103
AintNoLimit
See my coaching listing
 
AintNoLimit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: las vegas
Posts: 6,402
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
FWIW, I have seen plenty of 5/5 NL players limp-call QQ/JJ UTG and then CR small on a T42r flop versus a c-bet. This is more likely to happen when the player is less than 100bbs deep too.



This goes to show how wide the games can differ from one region to another. I have now asked about 40+ 2/5 players about how often they see flop check raises with top pair only (for significant portions of their stack and obv getting their stacks in with it as this guy was never ever folding), and the answer is like a broken record. (They hardly ever see it at all)

So wow, look at the differences in gameflows that we have. This questions answer will vary greatly depending on your locality and gameflow.
AintNoLimit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 10:04 AM   #104
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

I have a really hard time folding AA on this board on days where my image is very aggressive with these stack sizes... why? Not because I am incapable, but because it's just incorrect to fold unless its vs a mubsy because they are doing so with worse for 80bb.

I have also seen a lot of Tight old men call with QQ/KK from the blinds only to c/raise a J high board and proudly flash over a overpair to the board vs me. So, for me JJ actually plays a lot worse than AA in this spot.

Add the fact that sets are hard to make and villains get off on slowplaying at my room, and for 80bb folding AA is bad here coupled with my image.
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 10:41 AM   #105
Pokersevil
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 408
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Ok but if youre playing against one of those oldmen, fine. I was playing against a new V who bought in short and had "i am spazzing" written all over his face.

So let's say you call the flop raise, which I did. Are you really calling a turn shove? The only hand he beats if he doesnt have the goods is AK and after you raised pre flop, bet the flop and then called his re raise, him shoving the turn means he knows he can beat way better than AK.

Even for the stack size, unless we have a read otherwise, aren't we putting the villain on better than one pair here? Forget MUBS, his line here is we are beat
Pokersevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 10:51 AM   #106
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokersevil View Post
Ok but if youre playing against one of those oldmen, fine. I was playing against a new V who bought in short and had "i am spazzing" written all over his face.

So let's say you call the flop raise, which I did. Are you really calling a turn shove? The only hand he beats if he doesnt have the goods is AK and after you raised pre flop, bet the flop and then called his re raise, him shoving the turn means he knows he can beat way better than AK.

Even for the stack size, unless we have a read otherwise, aren't we putting the villain on better than one pair here? Forget MUBS, his line here is we are beat
I just answered your question basically in my post. AA plays > JJ for me at MY game, so yes I am probably calling most turns (or shoving the flop because again, I get called by worse. This probably doesn't help your situation though. If the turn is a Q or K I'd be folding a lot since the overcard should scare 1/2 his range, and occasionally he turns Top 2 or a set, making his line look even stronger.
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #107
ManikMarlin
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 113
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

I am surprised at how little weight is given to the fact that this is a short buy new player. Yes, 80 is not a micro buy, not a default shoving stack, but still, very prime for V to be a 1/2 sitting at 2/5 for a chance to aggro himself into a week's worth of buy-ins. So standard its default strat for many regs where I play.

I could give up AA here even in a no read situation but not to this type of V, seems to me his range is literally anything. I would give him enough credit to assume he's playing monsters and bluffs the same, so maybe I pause and try to talk him into giving something away, but most likely I snap shove his re-raise knowing he will call with any pair and tilt to me later if he folds his air.
ManikMarlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 11:49 AM   #108
Ohlongjohnson
adept
 
Ohlongjohnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 783
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

baluga
Ohlongjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 12:18 PM   #109
Neutrogena
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 462
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManikMarlin View Post
I am surprised at how little weight is given to the fact that this is a short buy new player. Yes, 80 is not a micro buy, not a default shoving stack, but still, very prime for V to be a 1/2 sitting at 2/5 for a chance to aggro himself into a week's worth of buy-ins. So standard its default strat for many regs where I play.

I could give up AA here even in a no read situation but not to this type of V, seems to me his range is literally anything. I would give him enough credit to assume he's playing monsters and bluffs the same, so maybe I pause and try to talk him into giving something away, but most likely I snap shove his re-raise knowing he will call with any pair and tilt to me later if he folds his air.
LOL @ 80bb BI as indication of a bad player.

If I never short buy into 5/10 or PLO, it would probably triple the time it takes for me to make into those games.
Neutrogena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 12:47 PM   #110
ManikMarlin
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 113
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Neutrogena - of course not, especially at 80 instead of 40, but in this spot its a tipping factor in what is already a "hard to fold" situation. And obviously there is a difference between the games you're stepping up to and 2/5 NL.

With nothing else as a read, how is that short stack not a factor?
ManikMarlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 12:59 PM   #111
Neutrogena
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 462
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManikMarlin View Post
Neutrogena - of course not, especially at 80 instead of 40, but in this spot its a tipping factor in what is already a "hard to fold" situation. And obviously there is a difference between the games you're stepping up to and 2/5 NL.

With nothing else as a read, how is that short stack not a factor?
Here:

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ild-games.html

and here:

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...up-a-game.html

I don't judge people who buy in 60bb, nor do I give credit to those that buy in max.
Neutrogena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #112
ManikMarlin
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 113
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

pulled those up and reading now, thanks
ManikMarlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 06:03 PM   #113
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit View Post
This goes to show how wide the games can differ from one region to another. I have now asked about 40+ 2/5 players about how often they see flop check raises with top pair only (for significant portions of their stack and obv getting their stacks in with it as this guy was never ever folding), and the answer is like a broken record. (They hardly ever see it at all)

So wow, look at the differences in gameflows that we have. This questions answer will vary greatly depending on your locality and gameflow.
Top pair is not the same as overpair. Ask your students how often they get CRed by slow-played overpairs on rainbow low flops. Then you may start getting some decent answers that resemble reality.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 09:01 PM   #114
AintNoLimit
See my coaching listing
 
AintNoLimit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: las vegas
Posts: 6,402
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
Top pair is not the same as overpair. Ask your students how often they get CRed by slow-played overpairs on rainbow low flops. Then you may start getting some decent answers that resemble reality.



I copy/pasted the hand as posted. Different player pools have wide variations apparently in play. For myself and all the data i can credibly find, i fold flop.
AintNoLimit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2013, 01:53 AM   #115
Mr_Doomed
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,629
Re: 2/5 nl, AA theory question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokersevil View Post
I have been at the table for a while but villain just sat down so no real read on him, no real read on me.

I am in the button with AA 600 stack V has 400

V limps utg, 1 other limper I make it 25.

V calls, other limper folds.

Flop 4210 Pot (81)

Both Vs check, I bet 60.

The board was super dry, I think I can only make money if someone has a 10. Betting the pot in this situation to me felt like it would get top pair to maybe fold.

V1 raises to 140, other V folds.

Should Hero flat and re eval turn or just fold? I mean who is check raising the original raiser on a board like this without two pair and bc the board is so un coordinated, maybe even a set.

When he raised I wanted to fold so bad. I thought about all the hands I could be ahead of A-10, JJ, QQ straight draw. K-10 with a backdoor..

But honestly i just dont see many villains check raising here without the goods.

Do people feel this is weighted towards a call and re eval or a fold?
Couple of things I didn't see mentioned.

-hero is on the button raising two limpers, won't our range be viewed as super wide? Why wouldn't villain think all his 10x hands are good to the cbet? Not to mention the random JJ which also wasn't really mentioned and less often QQ. I think KK is like never.
-as far as folding goes I feel u would need to have some sort of read of strength in order to fold.
-I think just calling is best, and sigh calling almost all turn cards. That way u have the slight spas factor still in his range.
-shoving seems like a break even play as u fold out any air balls.

Also the opening action is off, one part suggests its heads up to the flop while another part says that a V folds on the flop, which I didn't notice the first time through.
Mr_Doomed is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive