Um... Just me i guess

I don't like a call for the following reasons:

1) It guarantees a shove from V for any "safe" (whatever that means to him) card on the turn.
2) It turns your hand face up without giving you any room to bluff the turn.
3) All of your equity here is dependent on seeing 2 more streets.

Again, not picking on you, but all of these tough decisions are created by the 3!/flat pre. Not that this is the most optimal play, but I'd rather see a flat pre, then a raise on the flop with the intent to call a reasonably sized re-raise, because at this depth your implied odds are SICK.

When you're deepstacked you're playing for stacks and making strong decisions to get those stacks. That doesn't mean 3! pre to create marginal situations, and it doesn't mean calling and hoping for the best.

Poppa I appreaciate your insight and your are clearly very knowledgable and think on an "above the rim" level. I don't flat out disagree with anything your saying. I just need a little more explaination on why 3betting is bad. We have a player opening 30% of hands, we get dealt a hand that has his range obliterated. Why not A) build pot vs weaker hand B) put him on a narrower range when he 4b. the 3bet narrows his range more, thus, with 2500ish effective behind. Im able to outplay him post flop and more importantly, cause him to feel pot committed in his own mind, as he already has 450 in pre and has demonstrated aggression with draws and also paying off worse hands. Just please, break it down a little more why I shouldn't 3 bet. this feels like the perfect hand/spot/player to 3bet. I also want to know, what hands WOULD you 3b vs said villain? thanks again

I dont see why you would shove the flop. Do you expect villain to b/f a K? We have the nut non-pair and villain probably is c/fing underpairs OTT anyway if he's even c-betting them this size.

Flat IP seems fairly obvious and we'd do it with literally every hand we have in this spot (except maybe QJs).

say we flat and he shoves not nutting turn for us? cant think of a worse way to light 950 on fire

AsQs doesn't crush much. 7h6h is 60-40%. But the main reason is really simple. The hand doesn't end when you 3-bet. You make the SPR lower, and you eliminate a lot of the post-flop decision making. That would be okay if his post-flop decisions were worlds-better than yours but you said he's horrible post-flop.

Putting in 130 dollars as a 60-40 favorite makes you 26 dollars. Pretty insignificant in deep-stack poker. If he calls your 3-bet without looking at his cards then your 3-bet made you 42 dollars against a range of any two cards.

This is like a top 15% flop for your hand. Pre-flop KK/AA/AK crushed you. Now you have more than 43% equity against that range.

Here's the facts:
1. We raised a medium strength hand to create a big pot
2. We called a 4-bet to create a monster pot
3. We got a great flop for our hand
4. We don't seem ready to play a big pot

Do you not see the issue?

In general the issue is resolved the same way every issue with aggression is resolved. Be more polarized. Be less aggressive with medium strength hands.

Would you be happier on a Q62 flop, or A62 flop? In either case you easily could be crushed, on A62 you could be drawing dead.

I was planning on going to sleep but i had to write a little something about this hand because i cant get it out of my head.

First of all i find it pretty ridicilous that OP is getting flamed by alot of posters here for 3 betting AQ suited pre against a villain opening with a wide range. You can make arguments for both flatting and 3 betting, but i agree with OP that this is kind of a dream spot to 3 bet: being in position against a weaker villain with a wide opening range. Fear of being 4 bet a small percentage of the time is not a very good reason to not 3 bet.

Its pure resultoriented thinking to judge the 3 bet as stupid just because hero got 4 bet this time: hero of course didnt know that he would be facing a 4 bet when he made the 3 bet, and the 3 bet is still proffitable and +EV regardless of villain 4 betting us. The vast majority of the time we will not be facing a 4 bet, and we will then have the initative in a 3 bet pot in position with a hand that crushes villains opening range= we print money.

What i do agree with as have been posted before its that i get the feeling that you OP didnt have a plan for this hand. You was unsure of how to respond to villains 4 bet, and you dont seem ready to be playing a big pot. Calling a 4 bet preflop is certainly on the path for playing a big pot. Its too late going to get a tattoo and then lose your balls halfway through claiming that you have changed your mind and dont want a tattoo.

Now,to the flop. We have flopped the world here and have 12 clean outs to the stone nutz -thus talking about folding is something i have a hard time taking serious at all. Our only choice to think about here is if we should call or jam right here on the flop while our equity is at its peak with two cards to come.

To make this decision i believe its crucial to know villains tendencies as good as possible and have a solid grasp of his 4 bet range/C-bet range and his C bet tendencies overall. Is he a type of player who has QQ in his 4 bet range for example OP? JJ? Do you believe that villain is C betting his whole range here on the flop?

I mean, we are not getting KK/AA or AK to fold here thats for sure- so the question is if he has other weaker combos in his 4 bet/C betting range that is giving us some fold equity.

Regarding bolded part: of course AQ suited crush alot. Your equity assignment of 60-40 is only correct if we were doomed to play this hand allin preflop tournament style, and you know that doesent give the right picture when we are playing deep stacked cashgame poker and not turbo sit and go allin poker. You are giving a false picture of the reality here.

What happens when we 3 bet here with AQ and villain calls OOP with his "40 percent" 67 and flop comes 2-4-10? We C bet and takes the pot.

What happens if the flop comes J-J-4 or Q-Q-8? We C bet and takes the pot.

What happens if the flop comes A high, K high or J high? We C bet and takes the pot.

I dont need to go any further with this, i think you get my point.

The only way it's worse is if he's shipping underpairs as bluffs OTT, which seems really unlikely.

They are the only hands that shoving OTF folds out.

If he has enough air in his range you can call the turn. Why do you feel like you need to make him fold his bluffing range?

Edit: Also 3-betting pre is definitely correct.

Gilmour, your feedback is some of the most knowledgeable ive come across on any hand analysis. I cant thank you enough. I felt as though the flaming for 3betting was excessive, and primarily because of an unexpected 4 bet. almost everyones implying I should've seen this coming. well I didn't, which is why I didn't have a plan once 950 got in preflop.

to answer your question, he would 4bet with qq and JJ 100% of the time IMO based on his play

No problem man, i appreciate your kind words.

In my opinion people flaming you for the 3 bet is pure resultoriented thinking and nothing else.

But its important to have a plan IF we do get 4 bet, even though its rare occasions in most low stakes games.

Finally, if villain do have both JJ and QQ in his 4 bet range (and possibly even weaker holdings?) AND you believe he is aggressive enough to C bet those combos on this board i think i am leaning towards jamming on the flop. Calling the flop and whiff the turn for a check-check and then whiff the river and possibly see villain win in a showdown with for example JJ would be pretty terrible the way i see it.

Edit: Just reread the info in OP and when the guy is 4 betting as wide as 67 suited i am jamming on the flop here. We should absolutely have alot of fold equity with a shove here, and combined with our monster nutty draw i believe thats the most +EV line. I understand your point about asking why we should aim folding out his bluffing range Jambre, but the problem is that villains "bluffing range" can have showdown value at the river against our A high if we whiff twice imo, so getting him to surrender his possible showdown equity on the flop would be a fantastic result.

Bad plan...

Nobody likes a 5 bet shove preflop?
I'm not sure what hero's image is here but with a ace blocker, I'd at least consider shoving pre...

Lol nobody is "flaming," Gilmour. I haven't seen anything on that level.

But I think we both agree--OP needed a plan beyond "my absolute hand strength PF is beating V's range PF, ergo raise!"

This is not a PAHWM thread, where each step is debated on its own merits. It's a basic strat thread. As such, posters work backwards from the problem to determine what caused the problem just as much as they give advice about the issue.

OP's problem is that he doesn't know what to do with an unmade hand that's 54%/46% against V's range on a flop that is almost guaranteed to get stacks in.

A lot of people's answer is, even if they don't phrase it this way, "if you don't have a plan for this situation, don't create the situation in the first place."

And that, OP, is my argument against you 3! pre against this villain. You have a V who has previously shown that he will 4! extremely light to maintain initiative, which means that you haven't really narrowed his range much. At this depth and with that knowledge you have to call his 4!, effectively killing any advantage deep stacks give you to outplay him post. Plus, you've allowed a very LAGgy/LAGtard V to have a much narrower sense of your range than you have of his, which is why a LAG would 4! mid-range suited connectors here.

While Gilmour raises some interesting points, he missed some important details about how wide V was 4! and I'd be interested in seeing if that changes his thinking at all. Everyone else has been operating with the information that V is willing to 4! super light with suited connectors which makes a 4! almost guaranteed, since it means he's willing to 4! with literally 50% of his hands.

While I certainly think there's EV+ spots to 3! AQ suited IP against weak Vs, I think against this particular uber-LAG who 4!s with suited connectors and overplays draws letting him make the mistake is printing money.

There's a reason why we call it a "line" and not "a series of points" even though technically they mean the same thing. If you want to re-evaluate as the hand unfolds, put less at risk, not more. As I said before, I think not having a plan and getting gunshy when the pot balloons is something OP has shown a problem with in other threads he's posted (such as the one about bottom set vs. a tilting V's shove on an AK8 board).

PoppaLarge summarized the issues perfectly. Great post!

You seemed to have completely missed the point.

Exactly the opposite of your point. 7 high was an example from the OP. I just pointed out that AQs doesn't have a huge equity advantage over a 7 high hand, precisely because we're not all-in pre.

Then somehow we 3-bet because AQs can bluff a lot of flops? I think that's sort of dubious. What if the Villain raises our bluff? We know the OP doesn't want to play a big pot without a strong hand.

I never said I was against 3-betting AQs. But I'm against it, if you don't want to play big pots on favorable flops.

Are you in favor of making big raises and then not wanting to play big pots on favorable flops?

I considered mentioning it, and I'd definitely consider doing it at the table. But I think the thread is focused elsewhere.

You're ahead of V's range, you have position on V, you probably have a skill edge,and you're deep. I think it's a crime if you don't 3 bet in this spot. HOWEVER, I think you went a bit too big. $165ish (1.5 pot) would keep this a little more under control.

Flop...you have 70% equity against V range. (I gave CS down to 76, all Ax, 55+, all BW and a couple of extras) If you peel the flop, that leaves V with about a pot sized bet left. I guess it depends how much that $5500 enters into your thinking. Push, bink and go home with 8k, or brick and leave with about $2500. I can get behind pushing the flop or the turn.

3b is fine, people are being super results oriented

Now shove

Thanks au4all I wish my sitting and mucking 8/4o for three hours skills were as solid as my posting skills these days.

Oh, having re-read V's description, there is NO DOUBT at all to me that he gets his money in bad in this hand often no matter how big the pot was pre. He's shoving sets on superwet boards, he's overplaying draws, he's making hero calls with TPTK. Mathematically this hand is a cakewalk. Why would we want to run this guy over again?

It's not a bluff when the V has demonstrated a willingness/ability to 4 bet SC's down to 76s. It then can be defined as a VALUE 3 bet.

Again, I don't think some of us who suggest flatting pre are being results oriented. We're being plan and follow-through oriented.

For those who think otherwise, some questions:

1) As played, F/C/5! pre?

2) As played, shove/call/fold flop?

It does not help OP to tell him "don't be results oriented, 3! is GREAT!" if he doesn't know why, what to do if a 4! comes, or what to do on the flop.

Poppa are you trying to tell me we shoudnt be 3 betting this villain preflop with AQ suited because villain then might 4 bet us OOP with garbage like 7 high or 8 high? Are you serious? Then we call in position and can win loads or stack this guy when he sooner or later gets all his money in way behind. Its only a matter of time.

If anything villains willingness to inflate the pot with inferior holdings makes it an even more slam dunk 3 bet pre for pure value.

I will answer more properly when getting on my laptop again.

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I'd like to see some range estimates for V's call vs 3b range and his 2b range.

Then which range would you rather see a flop against.

1) Call his 4 bet in position and play from there in position.

2) Shove and print money.

3 bet is still a huge +EV play even if OP need to work on his ability to make up a solid plan for the whole hand and adjusting more easily versus wider ranges. Making this thread and discussing his decisions and thoughts is a good step in that direction i think.

The problem with this hand is not the 3 bet pre-its lack of planning the hand and i also sense a little bit of fear for playing a big pot. If you dont put yourself in some new and difficult spots you also wont get better-you need to come out of your comfortzone to learn and get harder skin.

If OP just flat in these spots 100 percent of the time to stay in his comfortzone his development as a player will for sure stop.

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Given description of V, I think more flush, straight, and flush/straight draw combos, sets, or JJ+ than 99-55. I could see 4! pre with a medium-small pair against OP and feeling good that he didn't 5! but I think V is more cautious with 3rd pair on this board.

We were discussing continuation betting: You're value betting a J-J-4 flop hoping to get called by what exactly?

I went into great detail about how little value there is in the 3-bet, considering that 76s has a very small equity disadvantage to AQs. The equity advantage is irrelevant, if you 3-bet and don't want to play large pots.

But more importantly just because you see someone 4-bet a particular hand once, doesn't mean that that's the entirety of their 4-bet range.

Once a 4-bet bluff gets called, isn't it possible that the next 4-bet isn't a bluff?

Just because you're slightly ahead of someone's betting range, and AQs is slightly ahead of 87s, doesn't mean that the best play is to raise. That's a really fishy thought.

People seem to be absolutely phobic about calling with what is likely the best hand. That's very often the best play, even if you're willing to play a monster pot.

Just random words. We could easily be behind, or flipping against the Villain's range.

Half the time he's 4-bet he did it with AA, which leads you to believe that he's very intelligently polarized in his 4-betting range.