Villain is pretty snug preflop, late 20's nerdy looking kid. Seems to get value on big hands despite a very tight image. Weaknesses in the 50 or so hours we've played are probably underbluffing and not going for thin value often at all. Earlier this session he folded AA face up after he 3b by CO open from the sb and led out 85 on a T87dd flop into a pot of 120. I quickly raised to 220 with TT and he insta mucked face up.

Hero is perceived by villain to be looser than he really is. Probably thinks I call too often pre but knows I generally stay out of the big pots unless I have it. Seems to generally respect my postflop aggression for the most part and doesn't look me up light often at all.

Hero stack is around 1800 and V barely covers

I open UTG 20 red QQ, v in MP 3! 65 quickly, folds to Hero who flats. didn't feel the need to bloat pot OOP when he could easily have AA/KK. I think he's likely to flat me pre with JJ or TT and possibly AKo but probably more likely to 3! Me with AKs/o.

Flop KQ6 (137)

Hero checks, villain leads 75, hero c/r to 210, v looks at hero but breaks eye contact quickly when I look back, he announces "450 total" quietly.

I think it's tough for him to have spades as the only combo would be specifically ATss and I feel he's very unlikely to 3! My UTG open with it. AA and KK seem like likely holdings although AA is starting to look like he bottom of his range with his flop 4b. I go against my gut and decide to see one more.

Turn J (1037). Hero checks, v takes 5 seconds and announces all in for my remaining 1300ish.


Call or fold?
For those advocating a call, what does my hand look like to V checkrasing this flop texture?

If you put him on AA/KK pre, why raise flop? I think I fold to the re-raise on flop unless I plan to gii, and then I just gii on flop. What did you expect him to do on the turn?

I thought he was equally likely to have AA,KK as much as AK, my flop raise was for value against AA/AK. I felt exploitable folding middle set to the flop rr.

So, what do you put him on now? AK, AA, or KK? You are in the same position as flop because you don't put him on spades. Nothing has changed, really, except he probably has A spades if he doesn't have KK. If you were ahead on flop, you are still ahead.

Tough spot. Described V sounds like a tough nitty reg given he folded AA face up on T87dd to small reraise on the flop.

You need to be raising to at least 30 deep in a 2/5 game.

Contrary to your reasoning, I actually prefer 4b preflop to ~225. If he 5b or jam you can safely fold knowing he has AA or KK.

Even with premium holdings sometimes its better to just not battle the other tighter thinking regs.

You need to make your decision on the flop. If your description of V is accurate the only hands here he will repop it back on the flop with is KK or AJs or A10s RARELY AA with ace of spades. Even with AK and the ace of spades hes probably going to just call your reraise. His range is so thin after his flop play that alarm bells should be going off in your head.

Worst turn card for you. Fold. You are now effectively beating nothing but bluffs and AA with ace of spades that decided to play this way.

OK,so this is pretty brutal and honestly in game I gii on the flop without a whole heap of thought....in the cold light of day though:
At no point in this hand are you ever ahead of the range you assign your villan....you assign him a 3! Range of aa/kk/aks..... You can comfortably fold qq vs this range
When he bets flop fine, I like a call better and let him barrell his ak or aa.....when you raise and he 4!s.....remember back to the aa hand when you had tt....he is not doing this with AA, or ak, that only leaves him with kk.....always kk, unless your read Is off.....he can't have spades unless he 3!s aqss, which you don't think he does......

Honestly though if what you assume is correct about your villan then fold to the 3! Yea it's terra-exploitable, but villans range is crushing us......
If you need confirmation of this in game, small 4!, watch him 5! And then fold thinking why did I fu***** bother worth the 4!

Lol ron that last bit made me smile

Don't gii vs this this V. I promise you way more often then not hes got it. You can't just shove for 2k after he raises to 450 thats insane especially after you worked up your stack. Just fold, flop call is fine, prepared to get it in if the board pairs but I'm still not in love with it. Turn probably saved you a lot of money if you folded. V just has it here

Pre is an easy flat. Why fold out what we beat? I'm with Java on flatting flop unless we want to get stacks in. If we know he can fold AA when facing flop aggression, what do we want our bet to accomplish when we go $210?

Pre is a good flat against some V's but against this described thinking nit reg I think playing more straight up fit or fold is better. By 4b pre V will be less inclined to bluff/play tighter post flop and you gain more info. By risking more preflop sometimes you save yourself money later on in the hand, sounds counter-intuitive but it makes sense if you think about it. This is not a V we should look to play big pots against!

Flat pre is fine.

Our raise on the flop is to target value from draws and AK, KQ.

Our flop raise can fold out hands as strong as AA and there'r almost no draws in V's range when the K and Q are on the board and he 3bet pre. Since we have 2 other Q's there's little KQ's left as well... just 3 to be exact vs 6 AA's and 12 AK.

6 combos of aces and only 3 combos of kings and a lot of action killing turns. Add in all the combos of AK and hero is well ahead. Im not convinced hero should be raising this flop but that would be the rationale for it.

The turn action doesn't really make sense to me, it would be pretty sick if he was turning aces with the ace of spades into a bluff but seems unlikely. It actually would have 33 percent equity vs a set so it might be a great move.

This is why you dont raise flops when you are at a huge range disadv. You have the absolute top of your range, and then you get 3b & get into a super sticky situation 400bb deep.

Just think of it this way. By calling, you keep ranges wider, and that's where people are more likely to make a mistake. If you raise this flop, it's easy for him to play better vs your range. AA/AK are actually trivial folds to this flop raise.

Shoving over his flop 3b is just spew. Flatting's gross but I guess we have to peel one. I'd just fold ott, he'd have to be a sicko to do this with worse value

What does my hand look like to v on the flop?
If he is telling the story that he's at the top of his range with his flop 4b, why does he jam the best card in the deck for my perceived range and the worst card for his (perceived) range?

Is there anyone who thinks this line from v is very strange and doesn't make sense?

This is why I prefer 4b pre with Qq against tuff villain to narrow range because when u flat his 3b solid v's range here is so wide given flop action he can have AA and AK with ace of spades KK and really any two spade combos

It makes it much more complicated to see V's perspective and thought process without knowing his exact two cards

HOWEVER. When you check raise him ok flop and he pops it back you can discount a large portion of his range that you are beating. If v is solid as u described he would only play KK or hands drawing to nuts this way maybe rarely spaz with 66 this way(leveling himself thinking u don't have KK,Qq because no 4b pre). All of these hands u are now losing on the turn. Described v hands u were beating like AA with ace of spades and AK just call on the flop. Yes u have to account for fact V might tilt hard and make a move with one of these hands and u hero call but that should rarely be the case. Are u willing to risk 400bb to call and find out??? This is a clear fold on the turn.

Maybe if we knew exact cards of V we could better see his thinking on flop and then utilizing blockers etc


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Looks exactly like 66/QQ/AJss/J10ss/A10ss to me. But we dont really know what he's thinking. He could just be clicking buttons.

His flop 3b should be pretty polarizing. Pretty much top set or a combo draw.

If you folded the winner, good for him. I doubt you are good here often at all when 380bb goes in the middle. It'd be awful if he showed up with AA here, spade or no spade

Remember guys V was described to fold AA face up on wet board to small raise on flop this guy is a Uber nit unless someone gave him a hit of coke he's got it just fold and wait for better spot


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Full disclosure, I haven't played much 2/5 live period and none at all in quite some time, I used to play low-mid stakes online although mostly 6max/HU. I just started looking around because I've been thinking about starting to play again. I should also say I was looking through some of the best of LLSNL thread and almost never agreed with the general consensus...

My initial feeling was fold because reg-ish people are generally nut peddlers as deep as you are, but from a general theory perspective I think you have to call. i.e. I think folding is a purely exploitive play and honestly if you can't get it in on this flop, why even call pre? But I think there are other factors that make this more of a call too. V has already folded an over pair to a c/r once, in my experience, people are very unlikely to do it twice. This amplified by the fact that it's over a short period of time, to the same person, and you presumably didn't show him your set last time. The flop 3 bet seems sort of spazy to me, I would expect a larger raise if V actually had KK given that the board is so draw heavy (this is a small factor). The turn jam is just total spazz button clicking, V doesn't know what to do so he said F*** it AI. Maybe he does have top set and just didn't know what to do with the flush completing, but it's pretty dumb in any case and seems to indicate the V has pretty much stopped thinking rationally.

Now let's look at some equity calculations:

)

board: KQ6J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	19.32%	34	0
KK, AsAc	80.68%	142	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	36.36%	96	0
KK, AsAx	63.64%	168	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	41.88%	129	0
KK, AsKc, AsAx	58.12%	179	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	48.58%	171	0
KK, AsKc, AsAx, KxQx	51.42%	181	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	53.86%	237	0
KK, AsKx, AsAx, KxQx	46.14%	203	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	55.23%	243	0
KK, AsKc, AA	44.77%	197	0

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QdQc	61.36%	351	0
KK, AsKx, AA, KxQx	38.64%	221	0

You only need like 36% equity to call and looking at the equity calcs, the only way to fold is to say that his range is damn close to 100% top set and IMO that just can't be true. People spazz some times, people tilt, people play bad, this is probably the absolute best hand you can have here. Anyone that folds, should fold pre.

On a more important note, calling and losing these hands don't really matter. Even 400bb deep, coolers like this doesn't happen enough to make a big impact on your win rate (although they do create a ton of variance) but you do want to cash in every time someone makes a huge mistake.

Long story short, for a variety of reasons, I think making a crying call is best and if you lose, you should probably call more of his 3-bets and c/r ATC.

Why do you check/raise on the flop? - I know why .., You want to blow away spades. Let the spades draw and don't you worry about them. Let them draw because you redraw to even more outs. ..., Are you with me? ..

You lead on the flop and if villain raises you shove and now the shoe is on the other foot ....haha...haha...LOL . Now, I'm sure he doesn't have the AT due to the fact of his 3! pre. He may have AA and he's drawing almost dead or he may be an idiot with KK and in that case he doesn't know how to play the top set. You got to lead OTF to let him put some money first before you bring the hammer out. Because the pot was 3! by him and we all know he's gonna c-bet you got to lead into him, the preflop raiser, ahead of his c-bet. Lead for like $150 and shove if he raises you. Initiate the bloody battle from the flop and if you encounter any resistance, got for the kill. If you lose with a flopped Set you will lose alot of money, if you don't, you're not playing your sets correctly. Always remember that.

Let me put this in layman's terms:
I'll tell you what you're gonna do with a flopped middle Set!
You're gonna lead OTF. That's what you're gonna do. You gonna lead on the goddamned flop. Let me tell you, Jack. What I’m saying is gold. - You listening to me?... And when that man comes back at you and slams his fist on the table with fear in his eyes..., you gonna jump up and grab his face and slam him to the floor...and make him scream and cry for his life. Pay attention to this Jack, .. And you gonna make him suck all that pain inside his heart. And if you could do that... you could become a great hustler. If you could do that. How you like that? - Is that good or what? - haha ...

I never understood why most people are afraid of a flush draw or even a flush with 3 suited cards on the board when they hold a Set. First, ,, Never slowplay a flopped Set, nobody knows and they don't see you hold a dark dog and a baseball bat on your back walking in the middle of the night. Why hiding when no one knows wtf's going on?

What other hands are you going to overbet lead flop with and how is it worse to lead/shove than c/r shove? If someone overbet led into me on that flop in a 3-bet flop I think I'd end up playing way closer to perfect than if they check to me with whatever range they're doing that with. I think you check raise because it builds the pot and your opponent is going to tend to make more mistakes.

OK, .. here you have it
If you lead OTF into the preflop raiser totally ignoring him as being the preflop aggressor that suppose to c-bet, you provoke him of putting even more money in the pot before your shove. When you are the one shoving he's got the big decision to make.

Now, the other one is what you said c/r+shove, but this situation didn't happen because out hero flat after his c/r. See, we have a problem here. So, if our hero would have shoved OTF, ... I'm all for it.

The bottom line is that we want to suck as much money in the pot as possible before the shove. Now I'm afraid that hero may think his hand is no good. You see how he's thinking already when faced with the shove? Hero missed the opportunity to shove after his c/r and that would be a big problem if villain is timid. In this case when we deal with a wild animal we want to entice him, lure him, wtf with him and bend him over into big money early in the hand.

The flopped middle Sets are the most money making instruments that we have at our disposal and we got to use this opportunity at the max. For what I care, villain may have TPTK and is afraid of a flush-draw and trying to protect but with his shove I am afraid as I said before that hero may think twice what to do and if he's good or no and God forbid he may fold. Then, what? ... Wtf? .. are we start folding middle Sets on a 3 flush boards against a supper aggressive monkey? - No,.. man.., I cannot take that. Don't tell me hero folded his middle Set because I already feel the pain in my joints. I have enough pressure and worries to deal every day at the tables and if I have to see a middle Set flying in the muck because villain may have AT or any other flush, I will not be cool for couple days and I have the weekend ahead of me. You know,.. man .. I have to work weekends, You know,.., I'm not like you guys having the luxury of being off work on Sat and Sun. (LOL)

If you're folding here the you have to be assigning V a range of purely KK which is ludicrous. People tilt, overplay hands and get lost and confused playing deep. V could easily have AA here and have decided he's not laying it down again after making the fold on T76 flop earlier.

I like calling flopand getting it in on practically any turn so I call pretty quickly here.

SynZen your equity calculations are completely wrong. If you add all combos of spade draws in his range you can see you do not have the correct equity to call. Also refer to my previous post, adding AK and AA in his range with ace of spades is thin, also some players will remove KQ from his range because we have QQ, also safe to eliminate AA with no ace of spades. I highly doubt described V will play this way with these hands.

After flop action and given the turn you are literally behind 90% of his range, the other 10% making up for the times he makes a move with one of the hands you do beat.

The goal is NOT trying to level yourself into a call. Make the best decision based on info you have. Sometimes take a step back and look at the big picture instead of the numbers. Can't stress enough against a tighter reg like this you need to air on the side of caution, especially in a live game where stacks are deep. Value the stack that you have built in front of you. Fold turn not losing much sleep over it.

Basically, the amount of times V has KK and ur drawing dead or he has the flush on the turn and denies u correct odds to call by shoving is 90% and him going tilt mode with a hand you do beat is 10%

Thinking about it more it makes sense now for V to reraise on flop with nut flush draw combos to build up a pot and he planned on jamming favorable turns. Pretty solid hand by V, just fold you can find better spots

I'm never risking my 400bb stack in a live game on a hunch that V might be tilting or making a move, unless of course given specific reads but by calling over bet jam on turn here is suicide. Obviously going to lose more than you win

Good post. Is this how mid stakes 6 max plays these days as well?

I find myself basically never raising flops this year and am loving the results.

Why do you think he mucked his AA in the first hand face-up?

The equity calculations aren't meant to be a perfect or literal representation of his range. It's just to show how few non-nut hands V would need to have to make this a call and I tried to pick the best and most reasonable ones and slowly add them in. If you want to add flushes into the V's range you have to dramatically change both his pre flop and flop ranges at which point he can't be some super tight nut peddling reg.

What is really important here is that putting someone that you have so limited knowledge of on such a tiny range with no allowance for any possibility that you may be wrong is going to cost you a lot of money in the long run. Saying that there's a zero percent chance that V just got fed up on the flop with AA or AK and then didn't know what to do on the turn is crazy. There are 18 combos of AA/AK so you only need 3 of them to call. To me this isn't leveling yourself into a call it's not leveling yourself into a fold. Folding here incorrectly is a huge leak, calling is at worst a tiny one.