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2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1

07-28-2015 , 06:02 PM
Had an interesting hand where I picked up a tell from V2 on V1, good to rely on this information?

V1 = Solid rec player. Use to play with him a lot but haven't seen him around in almost 2 years, this was first time I had played with him in a while. From limited hands I had seen him play he regularly was C-betting (regardless of # of players in hand) flops and playing passive on thereafter. Only hand I had played with him this day was a limped pot where I flop broadway from BB on AJThh board and got three streets of value on the 22 (no heart) runout. Shocking thing about that hand was he overcalled my river bet on top of passive fish call. Essentially, not playing as well as I remembered he use to.

V2 = Good pro player. Understands position well and not afraid to peel/raise when reads weak opponents. Someone I try to avoid when OOP as he is a deep thinker and tough to play against. IMO V2 was best player at table.

Playing local 2/5 game and I straddle from BTN. BB calls and V1 raises to $40 in MP. V2 calls on immediate left of V1. I call with A5 and BB calls.

Flop ($162): T52 - BB checks, V1 bets $65, V2 calls, I call, BB folds.

Turn ($357): Q - V1 checks, V2 checks, I check.

River ($357): 2 V1 bets $150. V2 looks at me, likely trying to gauge if I'm looking like I will call or fold. V2 then looks at V1 and gives off an impression that he thinks V1 is weak or that this is a bluff. V2 decides to fold after about a 1-2 minute tank. As I'm trying to decide my action and why V2 would check turn bet river I feel confident this is a bluff or something like JT. Big thing sticking in my mind though is that V2 gave off the impression that he felt this was a bluff, however, obviously folded in my mind due to my not having yet acted.

Do you fold/call/raise here and do you give much or any weight to V2's actions here on river?
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 06:11 PM
So we assume that V2 has more history with V1, therefore his read is better than yours? I wouldn't want to call much, we run too much into a ten I guess. So it's either bluffraise or fold for me.
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 06:30 PM
Fold flop???
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 07:16 PM
I don't see stack sizes here, which limits quality of feedback. Why did V2 just call on the flop, and not raise in an attempt to isolate? How widely does V1 open to 40 in this spot? Does V1 always bet weakly (less than 1/2 pot) like this?

Based on the HH and the fact that you're unlikely to get credit in the straddle, raising in an attempt to get V1 to lay down a T seems optimistic at best.

V2 could be thinking the same thing. "I've got nothing, V1 is bet size is weak sauce and Hero could have anything in the straddle. Can I steal here? Hmmm, V1 too sticky, bet size doesn't mean he'll lay it down and there is always the chance that Hero picked up trips, I guess I've got to let this one go"

So interpreting V2 tank as V1 is bluffing is a leap. If V1 is capable of bluffing AK here, it MIGHT be a call, I would think this is usually a fold. A read on V1 opening range and his betsizing tells pretty key I'd think.
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 09:14 PM
Stack sizes are very important in this hand. Can't peel flop unless we are deep enough. On the turn, you should be betting in position here. And I'd hit it about 165-180. Not only can we get better to fold, we can get worse to call. Think about how tough it is for either player to call with a made hand. The pot is bloated and they think they are going to be facing a big river bet.
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 10:37 PM
Forgot to add in stack sizes. V1: $1100 V2: $485 H: $950
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-28-2015 , 11:19 PM
Entire hand is a train wreck imo. I would have done almost every single thing different.
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-29-2015 , 12:18 AM
I don't think V2 played the hand in a manner consistent with "good pro player". What range could he reasonably play this way?
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote
07-29-2015 , 01:20 AM
After the 2 checks to you on the turn...

Range for V2: All 1 pair hands and draws, occasionally air.

Range for V1: A ton of air, some weak 1 pair hands, some club draws, some nutted hands, some strong hands.

Against these ranges, we win often by betting the turn and lose often when we get to the river. If we get check raised, we can fold safely usually drawing from 0-5 outs. By betting the turn we also don't normally get stuck in a spot where we are guessing on a hero call here since a river donk bet is rarely a bluff from anyone but the whaliest of whales (or wizards).

As played, considering V1 is a rec player, it is unlikely that he is value betting thin with 10x here like he should. (It is also unlikely but possible that he is turning 66-99 into a bluff or that he checked the turn for pot control) However, if you think he does v-bet thin then a river raise is pretty interesting. If you think that your image is set to where he thinks you play any two suited cards but only bet when you have it, your range will include a lot more 2x than his does. If he's not a calling station, he won't call with 1 pair.

How thin does he value bet?
How wide does he open?
What does he think you can have?
Is he competent enough to know that this is a terrible spot to bluff?

If you can't answer those 4 questions, then you should be folding on the flop after V2 calls.

Edit: Almost forgot... Our own live reads are never sure things. Don't try to read someone elses live read. For all you know V2 could have seen V1 go on monkey tilt last time they played together and V2 views V1 as a short bus LAG when he is really just a super nit.

Last edited by SunChips; 07-29-2015 at 01:27 AM.
2/5 - Live Tell from V2 on V1 Quote

      
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