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Old 01-17-2016, 01:16 PM   #1
MikeStarr
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$2/$5 live flopped flush

$2/$5 live game. I have $900 and limp in EP with 7d5d. Questionable but the table is pretty tame. 5 players see the flop

Flop comes QdTd2d. I bet $20, old guy ($300) calls and then a 19 year old female ($900) who is surprisingly good raises to $70.

What would you do here? Reraise? Call and wait for a non diamond turn to get nasty?
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:19 PM   #2
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

fold pre because thats a bad hand
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:32 PM   #3
Garick
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

More than questionable, imo. Suited gappers can be great when playing deep in position. Not so much in EP.

Things like this are why. You have a good V with whom you are 180BBs deep who has position. Her line is often QT or 22 trying to price out FDs, but it's also often bigger flopped flushes, or Ad+pair. You are info deficient and are going to have a heck of a time extracting OOP, but also a really hard time getting away if she decides to play a giant pot. This PF limp put you in a gross spot, where even if you won, it was likely not as much as it could have been, unless you got it in with a minor equity advantage and faded.

You are 82/18 vs QT, but it pretty much never pays off any more. Your best bet is the sets and AdTx, but you're deep enough that you may not get her to stack off on this board, and if she jams over your re-raise, what do? Could be a bigger flush so often, against which you are drawing dead.

Playing this crap hand OOP has put you in a huge variance position, but I can't see folding the flopped flush. Another diamond will kill your hand (if it's not already dead) or your action. Gotta raise now, and kick yourself in the nuts for putting yourself in this spot. Playing OOP sucks!
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:12 PM   #4
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Playing OOP sucks!
+1

Calling or raising are both fine here. It might be a raise/fold spot, because few hands can four bet you here. Calling and leading a non diamond card that does not pair the board would be fine, too.

Biggest problem with this hand is that when you're behind, you lose your stack. When you're ahead, you can't get max value. And, even if you're ahead now, V definitely has outs to beat you (either boat or bigger flush) and two streets to get there.

You've got a 7 high flush. So vulnerable and any flush V can have beats you (I doubt V has a 6 high flush).
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Old 01-17-2016, 04:19 PM   #5
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Call, and check-raise a non turn. Bet/fold 1/2 pot on all turns, where secondary villain is out and it's heads-up against the bettor.
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Old 01-17-2016, 04:29 PM   #6
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Play to control pot size. Call, see how action is on the turn. If diamond hits and she checks, bet the river hard regardless of what hits (yes even if a diamond hits). If she continues with her bet you assess from there. Chances are she doesn't have a flush, but could have Ace of diamonds with a pair or even a set. You certainly can't fold on the flop.

I don't mind the call even out of position, as long as you are a strong post flop player and have a feel for where you are or can determine it based on your reads. You want more players with suited connectors. As long as you can (such as in this case where warranted) get away from a hand in which you are beat.
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Old 01-17-2016, 05:19 PM   #7
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

I would call. You will have a better idea where you stand in the hand on the turn. If the turn isn't a diamond then bet, and probably fold if raised again. If the turn is a diamond you can get away from your hand cheap.

Preflop, you want to raise if your going to play suited connectors OOP. You need to thin the field of the random suited cards that beat you and get the field down to one or two opponents to the flop.
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:13 PM   #8
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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I would call. You will have a better idea where you stand in the hand on the turn. If the turn isn't a diamond then bet, and probably fold if raised again. If the turn is a diamond you can get away from your hand cheap.

Preflop, you want to raise if your going to play suited connectors OOP. You need to thin the field of the random suited cards that beat you and get the field down to one or two opponents to the flop.
Agreed with all of this... though I don't know about the turn lead. What sizing? How do we respond to a raise? And what is our plan if she calls and we see a non-diamond river? Bet/fold?

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
3,036 trials (Exhaustive)
board: qt24
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Ady, dd, 2245.98% 1,3960
5d7d54.02% 1,6400

Reasonable range? Looks like call flop lead non d turn is correct, but there's so many ways she can own us here.
edit: maybe we can throw in QT as well


OP says she is surprisingly good... what does that mean?
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:44 PM   #9
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

I said shes surprisingly good because shes 19. Shes too young to have played 100,000s of hands online during the online glory days and you cant even play live until 18 so how many hand could she have played? But yet shes hard to read, bet sizing is good, plays a wide range of hands....ect
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:55 PM   #10
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Preflop is terrible, that's why you are now in a tough position. I'd love to know where you think you're getting your edge if you're going to play any two napkins bingo with the other limpers.
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:25 PM   #11
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Agreed with all of this... though I don't know about the turn lead. What sizing? How do we respond to a raise? And what is our plan if she calls and we see a non-diamond river? Bet/fold?
There are several different ways this can play out depending on how many people are in the hand and what the turn card is. If hero goes 3 ways to the turn give up on any turn that isn't a brick. Heads up, check/evaluate a diamond and bet half the pot on anything else.

If we get to the river I think check/evaluate in most situations. If hero is heads up and we get a safe brick/brick run out then bet/fold some of the time and check/call some of the time.
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:28 PM   #12
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

I'm calling and then check raising any non diamond non pairing turn. Probably bet fold if turn is a diamond and if board pairs on turn I check call.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:18 AM   #13
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

I called the raise to $70 as did the old guy. The turn was another diamond. I didnt feel like I could bet now since the old guy is still in the hand and probably has a big diamond.

So I checked, old dude checked and the girl bet $100. We both folded and she showed 6d4d. UGH!
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:19 AM   #14
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish View Post
+1

Calling or raising are both fine here. It might be a raise/fold spot, because few hands can four bet you here. Calling and leading a non diamond card that does not pair the board would be fine, too.

Biggest problem with this hand is that when you're behind, you lose your stack. When you're ahead, you can't get max value. And, even if you're ahead now, V definitely has outs to beat you (either boat or bigger flush) and two streets to get there.

You've got a 7 high flush. So vulnerable and any flush V can have beats you (I doubt V has a 6 high flush).
I just posted results and she actually had exactly a 6 high flush
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:46 AM   #15
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Call, donk bet/fold turn, check evaluate river.

on everycard that doesnt pair the board. c/f if board pairs
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:49 AM   #16
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I just posted results and she actually had exactly a 6 high flush
If you construct a range for all the possible hands she could have in this spot, including two pair, pair and big diamond, sets, etc, a six high flush would make up a very small part of that range.

I don't know if a "surprisingly good" player would bet $100 on the turn after the fourth diamond comes, or if a "surprisingly good player" would show the hand after you and OMC fold.

Maybe she's surprisingly good bc she has a better handle on position than you. She limped 64s in late position, not early position, and she wins the pot. Position matters. It's easier to win with 6 high in late position than with 7 high in early position.

By calling the flop raise, you are basically giving up if the board pairs on the turn or if a diamond comes, which is one reason why re raising the flop is a powerful option. I don't know if you had a plan to lead the turn or check raise if a 'safe' card comes. But, with your hand and position and was always going to be hard to get max value on this hand.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:55 AM   #17
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish View Post
If you construct a range for all the possible hands she could have in this spot, including two pair, pair and big diamond, sets, etc, a six high flush would make up a very small part of that range.

I don't know if a "surprisingly good" player would bet $100 on the turn after the fourth diamond comes, or if a "surprisingly good player" would show the hand after you and OMC fold.

Maybe she's surprisingly good bc she has a better handle on position than you. She limped 64s in late position, not early position, and she wins the pot. Position matters. It's easier to win with 6 high in late position than with 7 high in early position.

By calling the flop raise, you are basically giving up if the board pairs on the turn or if a diamond comes, which is one reason why re raising the flop is a powerful option. I don't know if you had a plan to lead the turn or check raise if a 'safe' card comes. But, with your hand and position and was always going to be hard to get max value on this hand.
Agreed. Position killed me on this hand. I was surprised that she bet that turn though with the old guy still in the hand. It turned out that she bet too much and I check raised her a few times later in the session.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:05 PM   #18
ASLheadwalk
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Brutal she had the 6 hi flush.

Obv this is a muck pre-flop but since you're in this spot I'm playing this hand real fast.

I'd raise it back on the flop to 180-200. If re-raised I'm going broke with this hand.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:30 PM   #19
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Fold pre and learn your lesson about why you had to lay down the very flush you were hoping for against what ended up being a weaker hand.
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Old 01-23-2016, 02:19 PM   #20
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Agreed. Position killed me on this hand. I was surprised that she bet that turn though with the old guy still in the hand.
That is why position is so strong in these situations. Once you both check turn it's unlikely either of you have a big flush. A low flush is probably folding to a turn bet for fear of facing another big bet on the river and even a middle flush is forced into bluff catching mode and might fold turn or river. And villain gets to act last on the river, so she gets to decide what to do after seeing if her opponents bet or check river.

This sort of situation is why limping the medium and low suited connectors OOP isn't that profitable even at weak tables. You rarely flop the absolute nuts and when you do have a good hand your always guessing if villain has a better one, is drawing to a better one or is just bluffing. When you do want to play these hands in EP raise. When your 2 or 3 ways to the flop you can steal some flops, semi-bluff more profitably and when you do hit it's far less likely somebody hit the flop harder.
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Old 01-23-2016, 02:44 PM   #21
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Fold pre or open, leaning towards a fold. Suited gappers up front suck ballz

Grunch: 3b to $200. We can still get called by sets and two pair.

Saw the results, this is why gappers up front suck ballz.

Last edited by DeathCabForTootie; 01-23-2016 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 01-24-2016, 05:05 AM   #22
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Although 75dd EP limp (Mike's target should have given some reads on his table to help us in determining the EV of limping EP with 75dd) could very well be bad, I think that people in this forum are somewhat too categorically nitty regarding playing SCs and SGs in EP. And posters in this forum are way too categorically nitty about flatting SCs from blinds versus PFR + 1 or more cold calls ahead of them.
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:38 AM   #23
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
Although 75dd EP limp (Mike's target should have given some reads on his table to help us in determining the EV of limping EP with 75dd) could very well be bad, I think that people in this forum are somewhat too categorically nitty regarding playing SCs and SGs in EP. And posters in this forum are way too categorically nitty about flatting SCs from blinds versus PFR + 1 or more cold calls ahead of them.
I agree 100% with this. In this particular hand, bad position cost me the hand but I didnt lose too much money. Ive won a ton of money in other similar hands. I think limping in EP is fine in general as long as the table is passive and you dont expect a raise behind you from a tough player all that often.

Lots of times you can look behind you and see who is telegraphing a fold preflop. In the games I play in there are tons of old guys who limp everything and NEVER raise preflop.
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:39 AM   #24
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

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Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
Although 75dd EP limp (Mike's target should have given some reads on his table to help us in determining the EV of limping EP with 75dd) could very well be bad, I think that people in this forum are somewhat too categorically nitty regarding playing SCs and SGs in EP. And posters in this forum are way too categorically nitty about flatting SCs from blinds versus PFR + 1 or more cold calls ahead of them.
Readless, how do you play connectors and gappers up front and out of the blinds? Do you even play them without reads?
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:47 AM   #25
Garick
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Re: $2/$5 live flopped flush

Also, should be noted that ATsai is playing in higher stakes games, where fold equity is presumably more of a thing.
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