Hero's image: 20s young asian, tight aggressive image, capable of making moves (previous session 3b K4ss and successfully triple barrel bluffed, ran a massive bluff which got caught with missed SFD against KK which hit top set and called river, both villains in this hand were present)

V1: opens very tight and calls very wide (opens premiums, good broadways etc but calls super wide in multiway pots with SC, suited 1 gappers, even K6ss and J6ss) likes to draw and is mostly passive (always calls instead of raising draws etc) Basically quite call-y

V2: very solid thinking reg who is very capable of making moves

Hero: 2000
V1: 1400
V2: 3000

Hero picks up QQ in UTG+1, opens for 20, V1 in UTG+2 flats, random flats in LP, folded around to V2 on BTN who 3b to 110. I flat the 3b OOP, not wanting to play a massive pot OOP against V who can make life difficult for me post when my hand is face up (reason in the next sentence). A large part of my decision to flat is also because I have never been seen to 4b trash among these players so I don't want to iso myself against V2's nut hands. Would definitely 4b if I had a more balanced 4b range which included other hands other than AK KK AA etc.

V1 flats and flop comes 4d6h7h. I check, V1 donks 325 into 357 pot. V2 tanks and folds. Hero ??? Thoughts: I don't really have a good read on V1 but I don't think he would donk sets, straights or 2p given that action was likely to check to V2 who would bet, me flatting and then V1 go crazy after with those hands. I most likely range V1 on smaller OP (88-JJ??) or 7x. If such, should I ever 3b GII OTF?

Anyway, I decided to flat. Turn Th. Hero ???

River Jc. Hero ???

Should we ever 3b GII OTF? If we put V on OPs, is there any merit to betting turn? No right? Considering we only might even get folds from 88-99, JJ OTT while valuing ourselves against straights, flushes, sets (unlikely but he might? i dunno) Also, if villain checks back turn, should we ever bet river? Bet/fold? I do not know if he checks back flushes or sets OTT.

What's the best way to play this hand?

If he checks back the turn, I'd bet maybe 400 OTR and fold to a shove against this guy.

Assuming villain checked back turn, then river is possibly either a c/f or a c/r vs this guy on the assumption that he is left with either a weak hand or a strong, non-flush hand.

Given your read, I'm not sure what a river bet achieves. I'd expect to get snapped by TTT or other sets, and get folds from everything you beat.

Worth stating whether you had Qh maybe.

Well, he said the guy is passive and likes to call. The bet on the river makes sense if he would call with 88, 99, 55, any 7, whatever pair he might have. If he would fold all of these, then c/f to a big bet is fine. C/r is suicidal imo. He might not like it, but I doubt he would fold any hands we beat with these stacks.

We could also try betting like 100 on the river against a passive type. He might be afraid to raise without a flush.

I had Qh in my hand. I agree that turn/river bets don't achieve anything since it's really difficult to get value from worse. My question is should we ever 3b GII OTF if my read is he has an OP? Obviously on the table I didn't know what he had but I would THINK he has OP and 7x alot here. Is 3B GII OTF or flat OTF and go into check call mode post flop better here? I was planning on check calling turn and folding to jam OTR or checking turn and assuming he checks back turn, check call river. Is that okay?

?

What was the action ott?

v1 flatting the 3bet pretty much discounts any straights, and sounds more like an over pair, the question is how much over. Is he the type of player to flat KK and pots it so an ace doesn't come?

thinking to 4bet pf is pretty much on the fence leaning towrds flatting, because if he 5bets you do you really wana call being that deep AND oop? Are we calling a 5bet shove etc etc.

However I don't like the 20 dollar bet size I like making it at least 25 maybe 30 depending on the table. If the two people next to you call it starts the domino effect and then it's 7 way action.

turn - hearts are a small part of his range after he calls the 3bet of 110. I would be hoping he keeps the pot within reason so you can call him down reasonably.

no because he might have flatted kings, maybe he did over set mine and has a set, theres too much that beats a pair of queens and his donk bet says he loves his hand.

Since he plays draws passively I think we're behind his flop range especially with that sizing. He has to be overplaying JJ and TT a lot of the time for QQ to be good here. As played I think c/f is best. He probably doesn't have a flush but trying to bluff a fish off a flopped strong hand like 2pair or set is usually a losing play. Shove is the only bet size that I think might work but I just don't like the idea of running a huge bluff on a fish.

fold flop

There is no way he is donk betting out this flop this large with a pair on this flop....looks as if he wants an overpair to stack off here. You're really not ahead much against anything but 88-JJ. Folding flop.....as played....c/f turn. Wait for a better spot.

yeah it does sound like an OP. i think if he has KK he would 4b over my flatting the 3b pre. also yes i didn't want to 4b if villain didnt have a history of 5b bluffing me nor did i have a history of 4b bluffing him. i agree hearts are a smaller part of his range.

i am not bluffing with QQ here. OTF i believe i have the best hand most of the time since i do not believe he donks for pot on that flop given the action pre. i would range him on 88-JJ and 7x. i think he would be the type to check call his FD for 1 street as well. if his flop range is 7x, 88-JJ mostly and occasionally sets and 2p... are we not ahead of his flop range? i'm never shoving QQ here as a bluff. more for value if i think he would stack off with 88-JJ which i wasnt sure so i just flatted to re evaluate later streets. once again...... how is this ever going to be a bluff shove from me lol more for value if i think he would call off with 88-JJ. of which he MIGHT only stack off with JJ here. not sure

You must not play much live or play in really good games.

in your games do people donk sets and 2p in a 3 way 3b pot with an aggressive BTN as the initial 3better? lol

This is such a weird spot. What hand would a passive fish UTG+2 flat and then reflat a massive 3-bet with?

Typically they don't do this with 22-TT pockets because with a $110 3-bet, set mining is normally out. It's one thing to set mine for $20, quite another to set mine for $110.

Since you immediately opened to $20 if he has JJ/QQ, AK and is next to act, a lot of rec-fish just tend to flat there and not 3-bet. Now, if there were a few more callers in between you and him and he was in later position then I'd expect him to 3-bet JJ/QQ, AK but since he is next to act, a lot of times they just flat there with those hands. We can "maybe" put TT in there as well and TT becomes more likely since we have QQ and its unlikely he likewise has QQ.

I can easily see him donking out on that flop with JJ or TT. I don't really see him doing it with AKs since that hand is more likely to either go for a c/r or just take the draw (since you described him as passive/call-y)

The turn river run out is AIDS. On the off chance he was aggressive with his AKs he hit. And the remaining part of his range turned/rivered sets.

backing up a bit, the question is: What the hell should we do on the flop? Specifically, should we c/r blast this and GII?

Given your image and the fact you did try a big bluff earlier I like the idea of you c/r blasting this and playing for stacks. Simply because V can call you with JJ/TT here because your image is FOS and there is a draw on board and V can put you on the draw. You also said you had the Q so you do have a backdoor.

I think V's range here is mostly going to be TT/JJ. He might have KK but I think that will be a very low percentage of the time since I think KK would have 3-bet pre as to not get "cracked". But for the same reasons he would flat JJ pre he might likewise flat KK, depends on how fishy he is.

In any event, I normally hate playing for stacks in a spot like this with QQ but I could make an exception in this spot simply because of your image and the draw on the board which means V can/will call you with a hand you beat-- namely TT/JJ. Running into KK would be gross but I think JJ/TT are much more probable.

Lastly, I don't hate a fold here. I know, that seems pretty nitty, but whatever. When I play for $1k+ stacks I like to be more in control and have a stronger hand and better read on my villains. To me, c/r shoving this is more on the thin side. I think its +EV, but I don't have the warm fuzzy I normally like to have when I shove for 200bb+

fold>c/r>call

I simply don't like getting in nearly 300 BB with a high pair post flop. The absolute best situation is that he has TT or JJ here...small chance given his bet size IMO and fact that this is coming from a somewhat calling station as you stated. All other scenarios, you're only a very small chance ahead or way behind. By calling, don't see too many cards coming that you'll feel very good about except a Q and many times will end up committing the rest of his stack to the hand.

woo thanks alot for your input i have similar ideas but just wanted to get other opinions on this. my main qns was on whether i should jam OTF and get 88-JJ to stack off (but i think if i did jam he only calls with maybe half of those hands TT,JJ?) so i decided to flat. turn and river are obv horrible cause they give half of those hands sets and completes everything else sigh.

anyway he did have JJ after river went check check

i dont like stacking off with OPs either. but in this case the BTN is an aggressive 3 better, what hands are villain going to donk.....? i figure hands that have me crushed are hands that c/r flop instead of donking. i would put his donking range on 7x, 88-JJ mostly. why would a fold be good here then i really dgi. maybe we just have diff ideas about V1's donking range.